Web browser support

[zarlor]

But I would also keep in mind that people should be evaluating what a platform does today to suite their needs as those are going to differ from person to person and table to table. Once you've determined your needs and find a suitable platform that meets the majority (or all if you're really lucky) of those needs, then that's where to invest. Most of the people who are using Fantasy Grounds Unity understand how it functions and where their uses will be dictated. Roll20 and Foundry have web browser functionality, but do not have the overall functionality that FG has for my needs, so they aren't very good options for me. And I'm very happy with how responsive SW is regarding this product and that they are constantly working on new features and functions that their user base wants. So, we never know when they may be able to spring a huge new surprise on us. But all of it still comes down to them having to prioritize their time and support for what they think will give them the biggest return on that investment, like most businesses.

I don't disagree with this, and in fact it is because I enjoy using FG so much that I've had this interest in moving this particular topic forward, and largely not for me (I've got the PCs to handle it and don't see a time when I wouldn't, honestly... gotta have a good gaming rig of nothing else!) I very sincerely hope that something like this is exactly one of those surprises that SmiteWorks throws our way (the Forge, an idea very similar to one in FoundryVTT is another "surprise" I think is fantastic!). The main point is hoping that if something like IdeaInformer isn't really going to capture the true level of interest for this, however, then it really is up to the power of persuasion on a thread like that very one to bring it, at least a little, more to the forefront as maybe something to give a little more consideration to. Cloud computing is certainly changing the industry making what had been server farms for corporate entities not only more affordable for the average person, but even easier to set-up and maintain than they ever have been, and more and more people are using SaaS (Software as a Service, essentially using an application hosted in the Cloud on some server they never even have to know about or understand) to get stuff done, and that method just doesn't require the local power my gaming rig even remotely requires.

Heck, I've got a few micro-PCs hooked up to some used monitors just to get FGU up for players (at my table, mind you, not even remote!) for a game I'm running soon. Maybe $300 a seat for a couple of them (and another that I just use a SteamDeck I have anyway with a monitor to run it on!) So there are solutions even now, just not the kind that will draw new players. Honestly it'd been almost 7 years since I'd bought anything for Fantasy Grounds just because we were trying those other platforms for various games over the years, but none of them handle, particularly Savage Worlds, anywhere near as well as FGU does. It's great stuff!

So please do understand if nothing else I don't bring up the topic in any way disrespectful of FGU, quite the opposite. It's because I love the product that I hope to persuade some more consideration into accessibility through mobile platforms (web browser, tablet, even phone... whatever works) and that doing so should (just my opinion, mind you, but not an uninformed one) provide a decent return on the investment. I could be completely wrong about that, but I think some of the responses here (by FGU users, mind you, so it's not taking into account those that have passed over the platform as not meeting their needs at this time) are at least some indication that the interest is there and something to consider pretty strongly.

And, yes, I do get the charging-players-to-change-platforms was at least partially tongue-in-cheek, but I did just want to point out that while it may be the right answer for some, I think it's not going to be reasonable for many others. I can definitely sympathize with buying those platforms' versions of the same books over and over again, though! Been there done that almost more times than I'd like to admit! :/

[LordEntrails]

Keep in mind, in the past Doug has stated something along the lines of; The Idea Informer is just one of the input tools they use to gage what to work on and plan for the future. The also use the forums as well as do their own research and analysis.

The Wish List on the II is important, but so is the forums here. Together they are a good way for us, the community, to discuss and show our support for future ideas.

[Lo Zeno]

Keep in mind, in the past Doug has stated something along the lines of; The Idea Informer is just one of the input tools they use to gage what to work on and plan for the future. The also use the forums as well as do their own research and analysis.

The Wish List on the II is important, but so is the forums here. Together they are a good way for us, the community, to discuss and show our support for future ideas.

I wish more "veterans" of this forums understood this better: I've seen a fair amount of discussions of potential new features/changes/improvements being quickly muted (involuntarily, maybe) by the words "the wishlist is that way, go and add it there."
The wishlist has a big side effect, which is it obfuscates ideas in a long, hard to navigate list, and does not promote discussion for said proposals. Discussions are key, because it's through conversation that we can find out if an idea that sounds great in theory is actually not that good, or if an idea that sounds pointless would actually turn out to be a highly desired functionality.

[LordEntrails]

I wish more "veterans" of this forums understood this better: I've seen a fair amount of discussions of potential new features/changes/improvements being quickly muted (involuntarily, maybe) by the words "the wishlist is that way, go and add it there."
The wishlist has a big side effect, which is it obfuscates ideas in a long, hard to navigate list, and does not promote discussion for said proposals. Discussions are key, because it's through conversation that we can find out if an idea that sounds great in theory is actually not that good, or if an idea that sounds pointless would actually turn out to be a highly desired functionality.

IMO, just discussing a feature enhancement on the forums is inadequate by itself (once read, threads "fall off" the front page if discussion is not active). And, depending on the idea, just having it on the wish list might not be sufficient. I try to always suggest that the idea get added to the Wish List (for voting and tracking) and that links be placed on both the wish list item and the forum so people can see the discussion and go vote for the idea, and then from the idea, come back to the forum to discuss it.

[Zacchaeus]

I wish more "veterans" of this forums understood this better: I've seen a fair amount of discussions of potential new features/changes/improvements being quickly muted (involuntarily, maybe) by the words "the wishlist is that way, go and add it there."
The wishlist has a big side effect, which is it obfuscates ideas in a long, hard to navigate list, and does not promote discussion for said proposals. Discussions are key, because it's through conversation that we can find out if an idea that sounds great in theory is actually not that good, or if an idea that sounds pointless would actually turn out to be a highly desired functionality.

If it is on the wish-list the devs are aware of it; if it isn't on the wish-list they may not catch the forum post or Discord post that mentions it. Hence directing people to the wish-list is good practice. That doesn't mean that the forum post or the Discord post is being killed off; or that it's being suggested that it shouldn't be discussed. The wish-list isn't a road map; but it is absolutely used by the devs. It's also not the case that the more votes a suggestion gets the more likely that it is to be implemented (or even added to the actual road map).

This web based idea surfaces every now and again and whilst it may well be a way forward it's certainly not an easy one. It isn't just a case of slapping the client on a server and everybody can join it with whatever device they have lying around. It would require a substantial re-write of much of the underlying code; possibly even having to re-write everything in a different programming language altogether. You would somehow have to manage to squash down something (which I require two 32" screens to use) into some tiny space, and still somehow be readable and useable. THe curent uI just wouldn't be suitable for that and since most UI elements are handled by the ruleset you'd also need to re-write all of those. Then you'd need to look at how anyone could install the software on their phone or tablet. That probably means getting it onto the Apple store or whatever other store you download software for phones and tablet from. That would, I think, mean the end of the free demo.

Then there is the licensing issue. Since SW have licenses which allow them to use the IP of various companies in the current iteration; changing that to a different way of doing things would require re-negotiating all of those licenses.

And finally of course it would all have to be compatible with the thousands of DLC currently available.

So, whilst I am not saying that any of this is impossible, I am saying that it would be very very difficult and very very time consuming and very very costly.

There are at least two items currently on the wish-list for this; and so the devs are aware. And I'm sure they've discussed it and at some point there will be a decision made as to whether such a way of doing things is viable.

But, by all means continue the discussion. There's no one stopping any kind of discussion.

[superteddy57]

As Zacchaeus mentions in his response, directing to the Idea Informer is great practice. It's a major component in my development routine seeing what is out there and filling my project list with what the community wants. Placing a link to a forum thread would be very helpful to read through the discussion. I can relay that I scour the forums everyday and look at the wishlist as well. So both are great.

[Lo Zeno]

As Zacchaeus mentions in his response, directing to the Idea Informer is great practice. It's a major component in my development routine seeing what is out there and filling my project list with what the community wants. Placing a link to a forum thread would be very helpful to read through the discussion. I can relay that I scour the forums everyday and look at the wishlist as well. So both are great.

Respectfully, but I have to disagree hard on this: Idea Informer is a stupidly poor tool to gauge what the community wants when there's a load of ideas inside.
There's currently 647 ideas inside it if I counted right, and the default view when you open it is sorted by popularity; this means 22 pages of ideas, which a new user who has just discovered it has to somehow navigate to figure out which of these ideas are of interest to him. The Rule Of Google states that internet users rarely go beyond page 2, and never beyond page 3: this happens in Idea Informer as well, with the result that the ideas that, by number of vote, already are in the first three pages keep getting votes on votes, only by merit of being already at the head. Add to that the fact that lots of people do not go back to the Idea Informer page regularly to see if there are new ideas in it that they can vote, which means that once a person has given an opinion on a few items, that opinion becomes stale as soon as there are more ideas, yet there's no update to that opinion. That's not a measure of the interest that the community has in those ideas, it's a self-feeding cycle of whatever has already been voted on, keeps being voted on. I'm sure you have access to the history of votes and you can easily verify my words, if you don't believe the fact that I've used very similar tools myself and I have seen this effect first hand with three different large scale projects.
Idea Informer is good only as a bucket to collect different ideas - but once the bucket grows over a certain size, a new idea gets lost in it and you can't judge how much interest it generates.

Hence directing people to the wish-list is good practice. That doesn't mean that the forum post or the Discord post is being killed off; or that it's being suggested that it shouldn't be discussed

With all due respect to you as well, Zaccheus, but just because that isn't the intention behind the words it doesn't mean that it's not happening: go back to every thread in which someone has said "You can add it to the wishlist, here is the link" and you'll see the discussion dies within 2 posts, one of which is a "thank you". It might not be de desired effect, but it's what actually happens - hence why I said that the discussions are muted "involuntarily, maybe" - and the reason is simple: those who don't know about Idea Informer are new joiners to the forum, and when a new joiner reads "oh, for suggesting things there's the wishlist, here, go to that link" they naturally think "Sweet, so that's the place to do it!" and fall in all the issues I highlighted above.

The forums aren't perfect either, but at least they generate discussions. Conversations. Readjusting of ideas, refinement of expectations, clarifications from the developers on what is or is not achievable - of the two tools, they're the lesser evil; pairing the two might work decently, but for as long as people keep suggesting only to send ideas to the wishlist, what the wishlist reflects is and will keep being a pale list of uncurated ideas with engagement that is too outdated to judge wants and interests. So let's not wear blinders and pretend that it's working as intended, please.

[Jiminimonka]

Respectfully, but I have to disagree hard on this: Idea Informer is a stupidly poor tool to gauge what the community wants when there's a load of ideas inside.
There's currently 647 ideas inside it if I counted right, and the default view when you open it is sorted by popularity; this means 22 pages of ideas, which a new user who has just discovered it has to somehow navigate to figure out which of these ideas are of interest to him. The Rule Of Google states that internet users rarely go beyond page 2, and never beyond page 3: this happens in Idea Informer as well, with the result that the ideas that, by number of vote, already are in the first three pages keep getting votes on votes, only by merit of being already at the head. Add to that the fact that lots of people do not go back to the Idea Informer page regularly to see if there are new ideas in it that they can vote, which means that once a person has given an opinion on a few items, that opinion becomes stale as soon as there are more ideas, yet there's no update to that opinion. That's not a measure of the interest that the community has in those ideas, it's a self-feeding cycle of whatever has already been voted on, keeps being voted on. I'm sure you have access to the history of votes and you can easily verify my words, if you don't believe the fact that it's a tool I've used myself and I have seen this effect first hand with three different large scale projects.
Idea Informer is good only as a bucket to collect different ideas - but once the bucket grows over a certain size, a new idea gets lost in it and you can't judge how much interest it generates.


With all due respect to you as well, Zaccheus, but just because that isn't the intention behind the words it doesn't mean that it's not happening: go back to every thread in which someone has said "You can add it to the wishlist, here is the link" and you'll see the discussion dies within 2 posts, one of which is a "thank you". It might not be de desired effect, but it's what actually happens - hence why I said that the discussions are muted "involuntarily, maybe" - and the reason is simple: those who don't know about Idea Informer are new joiners to the forum, and when a new joiner reads "oh, for suggesting things there's the wishlist, here, go to that link" they naturally think "Sweet, so that's the place to do it!" and fall in all the issues I highlighted above.

The forums aren't perfect either, but at least they generate discussions. Conversations. Readjusting of ideas, refinement of expectations, clarifications from the developers on what is or is not achievable - of the two tools, they're the lesser evil; pairing the two might work decently, but for as long as people keep suggesting only to send ideas to the wishlist, what the wishlist reflects is and will keep being a pale list of uncurated ideas with engagement that is too outdated to judge wants and interests. So let's not wear blinders and pretend that it's working as intended, please.

How can you disagree hard with SuperTeddy saying he uses Idea Informer as a MAJOR COMPONENT in his development routine - he knows how he does his development routine, he is the one that does it.

[Lo Zeno]

How can you disagree hard with SuperTeddy saying he uses Idea Informer as a MAJOR COMPONENT in his development routine - he knows how he does his development routine, he is the one that does it.

I can certainly disagree with the sentence "directing to the Idea Informer is great practice."
Or just because a developer said that it's impossible that they are wrong? Just because they are using it as a major component to their development routine doesn't mean that it's a great tool, not that their development routine cannot be improved.

[Jiminimonka]

I can certainly disagree with the sentence "directing to the Idea Informer is great practice."
Or just because a developer said that it's impossible that they are wrong? Just because they are using it as a major component to their development routine doesn't mean that it's a great tool, not that their development routine cannot be improved.

Maybe some of the old outdated stuff on Idea Informer needs to be deleted for the benefit of new users - or ticked off as "Complete/Added/Implemented" etc.