It may well be that there is a different pricing and revenue sharing model. Different companies may negotiate different licensing terms.
It may well be that there is a different pricing and revenue sharing model. Different companies may negotiate different licensing terms.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these other VTT solutions aren't as fully fleshed out as an FG product. For instance, if you buy a FG PHB you have the complete text in edition to the automations. Perhaps these other solutions contain automations and stat blocks, but in order to make a "game legal" copy, you have to have the pdf for all the text with actual rules.
This is just my wild guess though.
No you're on the wrong path there.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindseyFan
Don't think of Realm Works as a VTT. It's campaign management software. It contains all of the text from the books in a very easy to use format. Arguably in an easier to use format than FG given that the focus is solely on the world and the story not the combat, and table top management. We don't use it as a VTT though. Alot of us use it at the table as a form of virtual binder. It's incredibly easy to modify content and wind it into your world which could have been a consideration in the licensing agreements as once you own content you can continue to strip it to pieces as use what ever bits you want where ever you want.
As far as combat automation. The Realm Works content coming our will contain Hero Lab portfolios and the two tools integrate so we roll real dice but use Hero Lab to manage tracking of the combat.
IMO FG / Roll20 are the online software solutions. Realm Works with Hero Lab is the software solution for play at the table.
Hi daplunk how long ago did RW negotiate their deal?
Possibly it was sometime ago and a little more is now known about how these deals might pan out and maybe a change is coming.
That's a very good question and one I don't know the answer to. I can tell you they have been in discussions for many many years but this latest revelation seems to have come as a surprise to LWD from the 'feel' of the forum posts. The impression I get is this is something new and honestly it's something I expect to see replicated both here and in Roll20 should both offer official support. It's gone as far as there are mechanical elements setup between both LWD and Paizo with the automatic checking of PDF ownership which leads me to think Paizo have thought this out, laid the foundation and are now communicating the change.
Let's be honest... apart from the slap in the face to physical book owners its a really good thing for those that primarily play digitally which these days if both the online and @table communities. It's going to really hurt physical stores though.
Can someone explain the issue here to me?
I am not getting it, it seems obvious that paizo won't be allowing people with physical copies they bought ages ago to get the digital content in realmworks. That would be insanely bad as a business decision.
Unless Realmworks has decided to become a charity and convert the modules for free.
I won't comment on internal details of publisher negotiations, but I will simply state that our arrangement is as follows:
Fantasy Grounds licensed content for Pathfinder will be sold on Steam and on the Fantasy Grounds site at a fixed cost per item. As far as I can tell, the costs will be the MSRP print price. There might be an option at some point to buy from the Paizo store at a slight discount if you already own the print or PDF product there.
Yeah, I own the dead tree Core Rulebook and a couple others. I have no use for buying a PDF I'll never use just so I can have permission to buy (for the same price, hey double dipping!) the FG conversion of that same book. These big companies just can't seem to get it right. Wizards refuse to make PDFs because people who will never be their customers might pirate them so let's punish the people who'd rather have a legal PDF. Now Paizo makes you pay twice. Awesome...
Thanks for re-stating Doug.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
Whereas there is obviously concern regarding the LWP/RW agreement for those that use that platform, it's good to have the Fantasy Grounds agreement confirmed and know that it is not following the model mentions on the LWP forums.
Shits about to hit the fan lol...
For those skimming this thread - all of this "$&%^ hitting the fan" talk is not to do with Fantasy Grounds agreement with Paizo - it is to do with Lone Wolf Publishing's own, very separate agreement. For further details, and more informed discussion about their products, please go to the LWP forums (links in post #119 and #120 in this thread).
Please can we keep this thread limited to discussions directly related to the agreement Smiteworks have with Paizo, which is quite different to Lone Wolf's separate agreement with Paizo. We don't want any confusion creeping in as to the Fantasy Grounds agreement (which I am seeing already). Thanks.
It's not really paying twice, the cost of the RW package + PDF will be pretty close to the MSRP price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn
So the difference between FG and RW for Dragon's Demand:
FG: 24.99 (MSRP)
RW: 27.98 if PDF is not already owned
RW: 9.99 if PDF is already owned
So for FG if you have already bought the PDF, you really are paying twice.
Toblaki, welcome to the forums! We are a friendly lot. If you need any help getting started, these boards are a great resource. What version of FG did you buy and what ruleset are you interested in?
Thanks for the info ddavison. You say "as far as I can tell" which doesn't sound firm to me. Here's what I posted over on the Lone Wolf Forum. Would appreciate your thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
In the same news release Paizo announced that they had granteD a license to both Fantasy Grounds and D20Pro. In the news release on DA20Pro they talked about Paizo developing the back end services to support PDF validation and synchronization between platforms. I seriously doubt Fantasy Grounds got different license terms than LWD and D20Pro.
Final prices for all FG products are at the discretion of the publisher. We sell through our site and on Steam and that precludes us from being able to do any thirdparty integration that sets the price. The price can only be "X" for us.
I don't think the price of the FG version is the (potential) uproar, it's whether or not we're going to have to buy the PDFs from Paizo first before we're "allowed" to buy/use the FG content, which is what's being stated from the developers on the other product's sites.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
This right here is the absolute crux of issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talyn
Actually I think Doug was quite clear that this isn't a current worry for this community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
I disagree. He was quite clear about the cost of the fantasy grounds content not any additional cost that would be levied by Paizo mandating ownership of the .pdf.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindseyFan
I disagree back. :P See the rest of the moderators' statements as well. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
Doug did say that at this time - without going into any contract or negotiation specifics - SmiteWorks sell here and on Steam and they cannot attach conditions or additional systems checks to that purchase so the price is the price and there are no additional conditions. As another posted pointed out the Realmworks pricing looks to be a little lower that MSRP so there is not as much difference as some people might be thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
The RW cost is below MSRP because you're not buying the content you're buying the effort for the data entry. In addition to the data entry effort you also must purchase the official .pdf. So are you saying that when we pay MSRP for Rise of the Runelords Aniversary Edition in the FG store that the content and the FG data entry are both included in that MSRP?Quote:
Originally Posted by damned
Thats how the 5e and Call of Cthulhu and Savage Worlds rulesets work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galymyr
The content supplied in the FG product is the same content as the physical or PDF products but in FG format and only usable in FG.
Wonderful! Thank you! Now, call Paizo and tell them to hurry up with the review.Quote:
Originally Posted by damned
There will not be any requirement for a check on whether or not you own the PDF.
The unknown portion is whether or not you will get a discounted price for the FG version if you buy it directly from the Paizo website and already own the PDF.
Wait, that's exactly what I said was going to happen. If I own the Paizo .pdf then I only pay for the FG data entry effort, that's the discount you mentioned. If I don't own the .pdf then I pay full MSRP, and from what I read elsewhere is the print edition MSRP not the .pdf MSRP. Which makes sense because it would need to include both costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddavison
Personally, I'm not seeing the reason for the gnashing of teeth here.
RW is not FG. Whatever contractual agreement that was negotiated between them and Paizo only relates to RW.
Continuing discussion *here* of RW/Paizo pricing is IMO not just in the wrong area, it's on the completely wrong website and can/will only lead to confusion about FG's soon to be offered Paizo products for FG.
It is interesting to know the results of the RW/Paizo contract regarding pricing structure because it informs a potential consumer about the on-line strategy that Paizo is obviously working under. But that really only means something to FG if their contract is exactly the same, which is extremely unlikely (but not impossible).
Doug has always in my experience been a straight shooter with the FG community in as much as he can without telling us things that we have no business in knowing about his business.
This is really no different than people complaining about the pricing structure of the 5e content and blaming FG for it: WotC sets constraints for 5e and Paizo sets constraints on their IP. If Paizo said you could only buy their content if you paid in cans of lima beans and had to be wearing clown shoes and a WWII German helmet, well those would be the conditions of sale. FG Pathfinder players, if they don't like the pricing presented to them on Steam and in the FG store, can choose to continue on like they have to now, and not worry about the clown shoes and finding a helmet.
Likely Paizo sees a difference in how their content can be accessed, used and potentially disseminated out into the world on RW and how the same questions are answered on FG.
I don't care what it costs buying cruse of the crimson throne soon as it comes out. my group already made characters, can't wait to start!!!
Kinda the same, but Rise of the Runelords and I'm two sessions into it, hoping for a released version that'll save me a bunch of time before too many more sessions.
We'll just have to wait and see. IMHO it would be smart for Paizo to set their FG prizes along the lines of their PDFs - players would still want many of the PDFs - they are just better to read and much prettier in their layouts ;-).
But then it would me much smarter for us to take this discussion to the Paizo forums, wouldn't it? ;-) We might give them something to think about.
Ive seen a number of publishers have open and frank discussions about PDF pricing. In every case they made considerably less money by pricing them lower. They did sell more when priced lower but not even close to enough to cover the gap. There are only so many people that might buy your product and there are a bunch of people who want it but will never pay for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri
What I personally would like to see - and not only for Pathfinder Content - would be a bundle option for a PDF / Module. Even when I own a hardcopy of a module, I frequently make use of PDFs while running Fantasy Grounds. Paying a resonable extra amount for both (20% more? 30% more) would be a dream come true for me.
Genesis that is exactly what the subscription at Paizo does except better. You get the hard copy at a discount and the PDF for free
However, I was referring to a FG module / Pdf bundle. I hope Paizo will offer those, since all their pdf carry a personal watermark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bidmaron
Sorry for misunderstanding.
The developers at both Lone Wolf and d20Pro (who got their Pathfinder license at the same time Fantasy Grounds did) are both saying Paizo's new license agreement "for all digital partners" is making them link the stores so a PDF Verification can take place before users can buy/use the Pathfinder content on those platforms. That's where the consumer concern and "gnashing of teeth" is coming from. Doug is saying that's not the case for us, and if so, yay for us. Maybe the Steam connection threw a wrench into Paizo's license? If we're exempt here, I'd expect a lot of anger over at d20Pro. Realm Works is more of a face-to-face gaming software so not the same thing as a Virtual TableTop but still, obviously their consumers aren't happy about it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnD
I would think the biggest difference is that the cost of the content through FG is the PRINT MSRP, while through RW and other digital channels it would be the PDF (or lower) price. I haven't read through every post on the threads on the RW boards or the thread on the Paizo boards but the ones I have read (I was focusing on those posts from employees of RW but haven't seen a response from a Paizo representative), that seems to be the major difference that would not require Smite Works to also be under the same constraint. Another thing that might be contributing to that is that Smite Works encrypts the content of the modules from publishers.
Then again, I could be completely wrong and just adding to the speculation.
I still don't see what difference any dissatisfaction at RW or d20Pro makes here, unless the same requirements are present here too.
It may very well be that the increases in sales and product reach/penetration into the market resulting from being on Steam were enough to convince Paizo to forego the linked sales requirements for FG, or it could have been the fact that you can't dictate to Steam.
It could also be that part of the FG sale includes the price of a pdf and one is added to your directory, or you get a download code from Paizo or something.
Now I'd totally be in favor of that idea! Buy the FG module and get an official PDF free? :)
I doubt it would be free; the cost or some permutation of it would be baked into the price (or Paizo's portion of it at least).
I personally don't think that there's a hig deal here. Doug can't do anything about Paizo's pricing strategy.
In my online experience, everything I've tried to run has been accompanied by a pdf and/or a printed copy of the adventure in addition to the FG version or what I entered myself. It just works better that way for me. I suspect that the vast majority of people running Pathfinder here have their own printed or pdf copies of the rules and adventures.