FGU: The interface

[snupy]

I have been using FGU for a few months now and would like to give my perspective on its interface, one of the most criticised aspects on it. To give some context, I started playing PF1, and using FGU alongside with it, a few months ago. I also briefly used Foundry while I was deciding between PF1 and PF2. I will focus on the negatives, and try to offer constructive observations and criticism.

I think interface complaints tend to come in two forms: looks old/bad and is unintuitive.

The looks old/bad part. While I partially agree and would prefer a more “gamy” look with more animations and the like (e.g. in Foundry it didn’t take much effort to set up various animations with the JB2A module), this is subjective and I also like the look and feel of the official Pathfinder theme. So let’s move on.

Unintuitive. Definitely. A good interface allows you to figure out how to do something without reading the fine manual. Despite having used a good number of softwares and being decently computer literate, I usually have to google even fairly simple stuff. Below are various concrete points.

It is often not clear that something is a button, e.g. most things (faction, targets...) in the combat tracker. While I like the PF theme, the initiative indicator is mimetic. The tooltips are useful.

The use of right click is very unconventional. Usually a right click is a way to access extra options which depend on what is selected. FG has a mix of actually contextual options, e.g. deleting something, and not contextual options, like closing or minimising the window (if you prefer, both are contextual but at different levels). I would remove all the close/minimise items from the right click menu and move them to the right corner of the window. Why would one think of right clicking on the desktop to return to launcher or exit??

In general I think that normal menus, that is text rather than icon + tooltip, are more convenient and easier to use. There is essentially no general FG menu, which causes some of the problems above. No menu at all would at least save space, but on a mac there actually is a completely useless FG menu, and no possibility to run the app full screen.

FG needs a lot of screen space. To some degree this is unavoidable, but the situation could be improved. For example, I started using the extension which allows to replace the icons on the right side with menus (better menus I think), and that helps a lot. Frankly that extension is gold and I think it should be incorporated in the main code.

Also why are some interface elements movable/resizable and others are not? Another good thing that better menu does is to allow you to reposition PC portraits and the dice tower - much more convenient to have the tower close to where the dices are. Yes I could move the dice but I like them where they are.

Supporting user defined keyboard shortcuts would also help a lot. I know you can have actionable things associated to the function keys, and that feature is pretty powerful, but user definable shortcuts would be nice. So would keyboard shortcuts for basic window management, like cycling or minimising.

The interface is not laptop friendly. I am OUTRAGED at the impossibility of conveniently panning with a trackpad. The joystick thing is slow and imprecise, and using arrows keys only works if you have nothing selected, while a lot of times you need to pan during combat. I can’t believe something like shift + drag (or whatever other key you like, I don’t mind) is hard to implement, and this is something people have asked and/or complained about multiple times.

In fact I would get rid of anything middle mouse click altogether. Revealing a hidden roll is a good place for a contextual menu item. I would also substitute, or at least give a quicker laptop friendly option, the left+right click to draw a pointer, although it must be said that this function can be accessed from the right click menu.

The options are confusing, I always have to google (or experiment) to remember e.g. the difference between show GM rolls and show results to players. I remember noticing this and checking why I found Foundry way of doing it much clearer. Simple answer: Foundry used two lines of text to explain what the option does. Doing the same or adding a tooltip would help a lot.

Dragging to duplicate. Who ever thought this was a good idea?????? This is incredibly unintuitive. I have seen no filesystem or software do this (yes dragging + holding a key does copy in some cases, or dragging to a different hard drive, but not moving a file/element within the same window). If you don’t move something, nothing happens to it. You would expect that a very small movement would produce a very small change, or no change at all. But in FG no matter how little you move something you end up with a duplicate. Duplicating would be a good place for a contextual menu item. To noone’s surprise, everyone I play with ends up with undesired duplicates all the time. At least deleting them is a contextual menu item.

The options for managing elements in record lists seem to come from computer interfaces of decades ago. No way to multiple select and the like. Assigning elements to groups is very inconvenient if you have to drag more than a couple or if the list is long. Also, I would give the option when you create a new category to select all the record groups where you want it to appear. Often you want NPC, items, encounters and others, and currently you have to create it in all of them. Not sure why this functionality would be hard to implement, but I seem to recall Foundry is just as bad.

[Zacchaeus]

You can reposition PC portraits and the dice tower without any extension.

One thing to understand is that the windows inside of Fantasy Grounds aren't windows - they are more like templates and therefore the 'windows' don't rely on the OS interface; so things like copying/moving etc all have to be programmed internally and for each ruleset (but the developers have been moving code out of individual rulesets and adding them into Core to make changes easier across all rulesets).

I agree with some of the stuff you mention above but the interface has come a long way from what it was even 2 years ago. There have been incremental changes and I'm sure this will continue. I disagree that right click is unintuitive; outside of games there isn't a piece of software that I use that doesn't have right click options and that's been the case in all the 30 years I've been using computers. I don't like better menus extension - I think it's horrible; so that's subjective as is the use of any extension. I also like the icon menus rather than text; making it text would take away from the quality of the interface (again subjective - as are many of the complaints about the interface).

Fantasy Grounds is a complex program and in order to use and understand it you do, in my view, have to RTFM; otherwise you'll just get lost and probably frustrated. Considerable efforts have been made in the last few years to enhance the documentation so that users have an easier time figuring things out. One last thing; you can click the query icon on the top right of any window that has one to take you right to the help page for that window.

[snupy]

You can reposition PC portraits and the dice tower without any extension.

One thing to understand is that the windows inside of Fantasy Grounds aren't windows - they are more like templates and therefore the 'windows' don't rely on the OS interface; so things like copying/moving etc all have to be programmed internally and for each ruleset (but the developers have been moving code out of individual rulesets and adding them into Core to make changes easier across all rulesets).

I agree with some of the stuff you mention above but the interface has come a long way from what it was even 2 years ago. There have been incremental changes and I'm sure this will continue. I disagree that right click is unintuitive; outside of games there isn't a piece of software that I use that doesn't have right click options and that's been the case in all the 30 years I've been using computers. I don't like better menus extension - I think it's horrible; so that's subjective as is the use of any extension. I also like the icon menus rather than text; making it text would take away from the quality of the interface (again subjective - as are many of the complaints about the interface).

Fantasy Grounds is a complex program and in order to use and understand it you do, in my view, have to RTFM; otherwise you'll just get lost and probably frustrated. Considerable efforts have been made in the last few years to enhance the documentation so that users have an easier time figuring things out. One last thing; you can click the query icon on the top right of any window that has one to take you right to the help page for that window.

Oh, my bad about moving the tower, I went by the extension description.

Maybe I didn't express myself well, but I am perfectly fine with the use of right click per se. In fact I suggested its use for some options, namely duplicating things and revealing a hidden roll. I find the mix of using it for things I would expect to find in a right click menu (like deleting an element) and things which in my opinion do not belong there (like closing a window or quitting the program) confusing. What I proposed to get rid of is *middle click* - which is much more rarely used.

Regarding the icons, I hear you. I don't dislike them per se. But I am using a 15 inch display and prefer to always keep open chat (no choice there), a map and the combat tracker, so space is precious. If I move the menus on top of the top of the chat that saves me quite a bit of it. Another disadvantage of icons is that it takes a bit of time to remember what is what. In fact I would do as the extension does, allowing both options so that each user can decide.

I am fine with reading the manual. I find that some bad interface choices make it so that you need to look at it more often that it needs to be. For example to figure out that the little icons in the combat tracker are buttons. The menu in the combat tracker has options which (imho) belong there, like initiative and effects, and rest, which I would expect to find when right clicking on a PC token in the combat tracker or on a map.

I noticed the effort in better organising the documentation, but I feel it is still not there. The last thing I had to figure out is how can player control NPCs. I don't think there is anything on atlassian (I may have missed it), so I had to look on forum threads. For a while I seemed to have found that dragging the NPC over the PC portrait should do it, took me some more time to find out that for some reasons you also have to enable party vision.

Mind you, FG has many top notch tutorials, for example your videos. Written instructions are so and so though, and the various resources are still quite scattered. In a sense, I'd RTFM, but there really isn't one.

I noticed that things are evolving and I appreciate it. Moreover the community, both developers and users, is very helpful and active. For the time being I have no intention to stop supporting (I have bought several modules) and using it. But FG is a commercial software in a competitive space, and definitely not the cheapest option in its category, so improvement is expected, although I definitely appreciate that it is not subscription based.

[Zacchaeus]

I hear you.

On the question on PCs controlling an NPC the reason why you need to enable party movement is that the player doesn't actually have ownership of the NPC. Technically players shouldn't have any control at all over NPCs but a quirk in sharing semi-allows it. With Party movement on any player can move any friendly token which isn't really desirable but does allow for players to control friendly NPCs. It's not documented because it's not supposed to happen basically.

On exiting the program I'm just used to the right click I suppose. If it were a game I'd be looking to hit escape and get presented with a menu of quitting or returning to the main menu etc and maybe one day that will be the way of things.

[LordEntrails]

I always appreciate a well thought out discussion on this topic. As you noted, it is often a point of contention in the community, and too often turns into something not constructive. Hopefully we can keep it that way.

One thing I will note, is some of your ideas/suggestions should go on the wish list, so that other people can vote on them. Or you might find some of them already there and you can vote on the existing ideas. See: http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

To give my opinion on some of your points:

Animation on the UI - Honestly do you mean like window frames and things being animated? I like animation on the portraits, tokens and images, but on UI elements the thought actually concerns me. Any examples you could link to?

Unintuitive - I totally believe you on this one, and it's a common opinion. It still amazes me though as for whatever reason I never had a challenge learning the interface. And even though my first recommendation to new users is to read the user guide, I never have actually needed to. I guess I'm a freak, but I've always found the UI very easy and intuitive, it just makes sense to me

Right Click - I'm not sure just where you are going with on this one. Context sensitive right mouse if very common. We've been using it in Windows since... the '90s? I've been using it in MCAD programs since that time frame as well. And it's still core to many programs even today. Now you mention Macs, so maybe this isn't something you are familiar with, but every Windows program today still has Right Click to close the application, here's a screen shot of Discord;
Screenshot 2024-01-28 161658.png

I understand the desire for cascading text menu's. It's what a lot of folks are used to. But another subjective opinion (mine) is that they suck. Fortunately for you (and many others) Celestian agrees with you and so he created Better Menus. I'm glad FG doesn't use them. To me, it's the difference between playing an RPG on the computer, and immersing myself in a Virtual Table Top. But again, this is just one view, yours is just as valid as mine.

UI Inconsistencies / Buttons - This is certainly an issue. As Mr Z says, it's getting better than it was a few years ago. And it's one of the areas the devs are working on currently. A lot of it has to do with history, and that the rulesets actually define if they use buttons or fields and it's up to the ruleset developer to chose which to use where, and most rulesets are actually not built by SmiteWorks. But ultimately, it's their responsibility, but they are working on it. We (the community, just have to keep them accountable while giving them the time to make the improvements given their extremely constrained resources.

I like the idea of user defined shortcuts. I would love to be able to program my extra mouse buttons. You should add this one to the Wis List. It's a good idea.

Middle Mouse - I know this is a challenge for Mac users. But it is pretty core to almost ever Windows and many Unix programs. For us, it would be like cutting off you left arm.

Laptop use - I run FG ever week on a laptop. I've got no problems with it. Now I almost always use a 3-button mouse. It really is worth investing $10 to get a mouse and move away from a trackpad. But, there are still several ways for you to pan with a trackpad. The first is the pan/zoom icon in the bottom right corner which anyone can use with just left click/select. Personally, I don't like it, hence why I use a mouse. But, depending upon your trackpad driver, you can also do middle mouse right on your trackpad. But, I do agree that the UI for Macs needs to be given a second look. I know there are major reasons not to use unique channels for different operating systems, but their might be a better solution still out there.

Options - I like the idea of mouse over hints for them. I'll vote for this one on the Wish List...

Duplicating - I agree dragging to duplicate is strange. But my players and I don't seem to have the problem with it you and your players do. Maybe it's just familiarity?

Group/Category management - I agree it would be nice to have a way to multi-select or move multiple items at the same time. When creating stuff, I just make sure I have the right group active. Maybe an enhancement where you could have check boxes or multi-select when in edit mode would be feasible. This is another idea for the wish list of something similar is not already there.

Improvements will keep coming. The devs are always working on things and we get major updates several times a year, and content or bug fixes every week. It takes time though. And good constructive feedback from the community, new users like you, and older ones like me. It's always a challenge to develop and improve an application as it ages and new technologies and expectations develop while maintaining the current users expectations.

[ddavison]

Thanks for writing up your experience and for providing concrete examples of things you dislike about the interface. Several of these are known issues that we have discussed internally and haven't prioritized revamping them yet.

[snupy]

I always appreciate a well thought out discussion on this topic. As you noted, it is often a point of contention in the community, and too often turns into something not constructive. Hopefully we can keep it that way.

One thing I will note, is some of your ideas/suggestions should go on the wish list, so that other people can vote on them. Or you might find some of them already there and you can vote on the existing ideas. See: http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

Good point, I will do this later.

To give my opinion on some of your points:

Animation on the UI - Honestly do you mean like window frames and things being animated? I like animation on the portraits, tokens and images, but on UI elements the thought actually concerns me. Any examples you could link to?

Mostly thinking of spells and similar effects, tokens and battlemaps. So not really interface, I guess I mentioned it since implementation/availability of these things affects what the software looks like and so the "looks old" perception. For examples: with these assets
https://library.jb2a.com/#Fireball
(Patreon, but good free sample) and the free automated animation module
https://github.com/otigon/automated-jb2a-animations
(essentially scripting to automatically launch the animation of spell launch or similar) one could get nice animations with little effort - I did set it up (for PF2E). Currently in FG there is a (paid? can't remember) extension which allows the GM to place a static overlay image for spell effects - not quite the same.

Many things like
https://www.patreon.com/beneostokens
https://www.patreon.com/BeneosBattlemaps

are available for Foundry. There is also a module which allows stepping on something to trigger effects, it's called active monk tile
https://foundryvtt.com/packages/monks-active-tiles
I have never used it but seems pretty neat.

Now from what you write I suspect that you may not like many of these things as getting too close to a videogame experience. Also I know that FG supports animations, although only a less common format due to being based on Unity. But as a final user what matters to me is that there are much fewer possibilities, and no easy way to set up e.g. automatic spell animations.

Unintuitive - I totally believe you on this one, and it's a common opinion. It still amazes me though as for whatever reason I never had a challenge learning the interface. And even though my first recommendation to new users is to read the user guide, I never have actually needed to. I guess I'm a freak, but I've always found the UI very easy and intuitive, it just makes sense to me

Right Click - I'm not sure just where you are going with on this one. Context sensitive right mouse if very common. We've been using it in Windows since... the '90s? I've been using it in MCAD programs since that time frame as well. And it's still core to many programs even today. Now you mention Macs, so maybe this isn't something you are familiar with, but every Windows program today still has Right Click to close the application, here's a screen shot of Discord;
Screenshot 2024-01-28 161658.png

Yeah Zacchaeus wrote similar things, looks like the way right click menus are set up in mac is a bit different. Still have the feeling that some options are not well placed but looks like I need better examples.

I understand the desire for cascading text menu's. It's what a lot of folks are used to. But another subjective opinion (mine) is that they suck. Fortunately for you (and many others) Celestian agrees with you and so he created Better Menus. I'm glad FG doesn't use them. To me, it's the difference between playing an RPG on the computer, and immersing myself in a Virtual Table Top. But again, this is just one view, yours is just as valid as mine.

UI Inconsistencies / Buttons - This is certainly an issue. As Mr Z says, it's getting better than it was a few years ago. And it's one of the areas the devs are working on currently. A lot of it has to do with history, and that the rulesets actually define if they use buttons or fields and it's up to the ruleset developer to chose which to use where, and most rulesets are actually not built by SmiteWorks. But ultimately, it's their responsibility, but they are working on it. We (the community, just have to keep them accountable while giving them the time to make the improvements given their extremely constrained resources.

I like the idea of user defined shortcuts. I would love to be able to program my extra mouse buttons. You should add this one to the Wis List. It's a good idea.

Middle Mouse - I know this is a challenge for Mac users. But it is pretty core to almost ever Windows and many Unix programs. For us, it would be like cutting off you left arm.

Laptop use - I run FG ever week on a laptop. I've got no problems with it. Now I almost always use a 3-button mouse. It really is worth investing $10 to get a mouse and move away from a trackpad. But, there are still several ways for you to pan with a trackpad. The first is the pan/zoom icon in the bottom right corner which anyone can use with just left click/select. Personally, I don't like it, hence why I use a mouse. But, depending upon your trackpad driver, you can also do middle mouse right on your trackpad. But, I do agree that the UI for Macs needs to be given a second look. I know there are major reasons not to use unique channels for different operating systems, but their might be a better solution still out there.

I think trackpads are so good now that many people who have a laptop and don't use software which heavily requires a mouse, which is probably most users, stick to the trackpad. I do have a mouse, I'd just prefer to have the same experience using the trackpad, sometimes I'm on my couch, sometimes I just want to grab the laptop and go, etc. I think the same goes for the people I play with, feels annoying to tell them they should really get a mouse. FG doesn't strike me as the kind of software which really needs a mouse to deliver optimally.
I looked at emulating middle click on a track pad. There is nothing native, you can get middle click via third party, but I could not find a way to get middle click drag. Left+right is also a no go. I hate the icon thing.

Options - I like the idea of mouse over hints for them. I'll vote for this one on the Wish List...

Duplicating - I agree dragging to duplicate is strange. But my players and I don't seem to have the problem with it you and your players do. Maybe it's just familiarity?

Well sure, you can get used to (almost) anything if you have to, doesn't make it a good choice. It irks me, for the reasons I explained, more at a conceptual than practical level. But software can be a barrier, to playing an RPG in this case, and for other users this unusual behaviour makes the software scarier/harder to use, I think it gives them a feeling that it's so easy to mess up things.

Group/Category management - I agree it would be nice to have a way to multi-select or move multiple items at the same time. When creating stuff, I just make sure I have the right group active. Maybe an enhancement where you could have check boxes or multi-select when in edit mode would be feasible. This is another idea for the wish list of something similar is not already there.

Improvements will keep coming. The devs are always working on things and we get major updates several times a year, and content or bug fixes every week. It takes time though. And good constructive feedback from the community, new users like you, and older ones like me. It's always a challenge to develop and improve an application as it ages and new technologies and expectations develop while maintaining the current users expectations.

[Zacchaeus]

I'm sure you know this but FGU supports animated images and tokens in webp codec 8 format. THere's no automation for it as yet - in other words FG doesn't automatically place a token when you cast fireball. However 2.5d is on it's way soon. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...-Mode-for-2024

[Nylanfs]

When using my laptop I use a trackball as opposed to a mouse or the trackpad.

[HywelPhillips]

I run exclusively on Mac and I use a cheap three-button (well, two buttons and a click-able middle scroll wheel) to control FGU.

That $10 bit of kit made a lot of difference for me and I take one around with me just to use FGU.

I know it's not ideal, and I agree with many of your UI comments, but I would say that just plugging in that cheap mouse really did improve my user experience considerably.

FGU is not in good agreement with Apple UI guidelines but at least we can run it on our Macs I'll take the occasional clunky interface to access the huge functionality. A bunch of this stuff does need revisiting and streamlining to be more in line with modern UI expectations. Things have got better since FGU was released, and the more recent functionality has UI that no-one complains about (eg the map making tools).

Cheers, Hywel