Dice: Manual Entry Option

[Zephyros]

So, I was worried about this option as a cheat mechanic.
I don't know why this option is here (maybe live tables with physical dices?... but /dice # would do the job and is 'faster').
So a player can "set" the value that they want to the dice roll, and at least for them the chat shows a [MANUAL ROLL] tag. So a DM can detect that he is 'cheating'.
But the inverse isn't true? When a DM do manual roll the chat doesn't show this tag... why? This let DMs to fudge and cheat attacks.

[Nickademus]

Exactly. Trusting your GM to provide a fun and challenging experience is part of the process of finding a good group. A GM shouldn't be policed.

[Zephyros]

hummm...you don't need to fudge and cheat to bring "fun and challenging experience"...

At least show to the players that this option is activated by the DM (only the option, not when the roll is fudged). That way the DM can talk with the players at session 0 and alert his style of play.
Not showing any indication that the DM have "fudge mode" enabled is a dishonest feature IMO.

[LordEntrails]

It's just like how many GM's will roll there dice behind a screen.

You can always think of a reason or way in which anything can be abused. But do you want to bother playing a game with someone you can't trust to have the fun of everyone as a priority?

[DrakosDJ]

So, I was worried about this option as a cheat mechanic.
I don't know why this option is here (maybe live tables with physical dices?... but /dice # would do the job and is 'faster').
So a player can "set" the value that they want to the dice roll, and at least for them the chat shows a [MANUAL ROLL] tag. So a DM can detect that he is 'cheating'.
But the inverse isn't true? When a DM do manual roll the chat doesn't show this tag... why? This let DMs to fudge and cheat attacks.

Short answer, it's here because a lot of people requested it. People went so far as to make mods to add it in. The problem was that the mods were clunky and had some odd issues. FG responded to the community requests and made it an official enhancement. You don't have to turn it on.

As for why, I know that for my local group some people really like to roll the dice, it's part of their fun. But they also like the convenience of FG tracking the game state, so this allows them to roll and FG to maintain the state.

[Ram Tyr]

Exactly. Trusting your GM to provide a fun and challenging experience is part of the process of finding a good group. A GM shouldn't be policed.


hummm...you don't need to fudge and cheat to bring "fun and challenging experience"...
Whistle blows.
Penalty flag on the field. Unnecessary word twisting.

Nobody said that you need to fudge and cheat to bring fun and challenging experience. The point was about finding a good group where you trust your GM versus playing in a group where you do not trust your GM.

Drops back the loss of yards.
Whistle blows and play resumes.

[Niles]

So, I was worried about this option as a cheat mechanic.
I don't know why this option is here (maybe live tables with physical dices?... but /dice # would do the job and is 'faster').
So a player can "set" the value that they want to the dice roll, and at least for them the chat shows a [MANUAL ROLL] tag. So a DM can detect that he is 'cheating'.
But the inverse isn't true? When a DM do manual roll the chat doesn't show this tag... why? This let DMs to fudge and cheat attacks.

Hi Zephyros,
There is another way to look at this tool. Like LordEntrails said above, it's like when a DM rolls a die behind a screen. Why not roll it in the open? Or why have players roll in the dice tower? It's because the DM wants a certain outcome for the action to bend the story his way. If you want the story to totally go the way according to the dice rolls, that's one way to play. I'm the type of DM that is very invested in my story lines, and sometimes I need certain outcomes to happen and in order to make that happen, I need the dice to roll a certain way. So for me, it's not so much "cheating", as it is trying to nudge the story in a certain direction by way of the dice. I entertain my players through my storytelling. It's not used for every single roll, just when I need it.

[Andraax]

The tower is also used for rolls that the character could not know the outcome of. When a character is looking for traps, they make a roll. If they are successful, and the GM says there are no traps, then the player can be confident that there are, indeed, no traps. However, a more realistic situation is that the character does not detect a trap, but there may or may not be a trap - either there is none, or they were unsuccessful at detecting the existing trap. This is what the tower is useful for - the player rolls the dice, and if the GM says "you do not detect any traps" the player does not know if that means there is no trap, or they failed their roll. This situation can be used to describe a variety of situations. It prevents a player from having knowledge his character could not possibly know.

[JohnD]

By definition a DM cannot "cheat" since they are the arbiter of everything that takes place in their creation.

Andraax is spot on regarding the Tower.

If a player doesn't "trust" their DM, then the best thing they can do for not only themselves, but the DM in question as well, is find a different game to join or don the mantle themselves; nobody needs that friction on either side of the screen.

[Zacchaeus]

Everyone plays the game differently; there are DMs that fudge dice (for good and bad reasons no doubt) and there are those that don't. Each to their own. If you don't like the idea that a DM would fudge dice then only play with DMs that have the show DM rolls option on and ignore those that don't.

[Nickademus]

Everyone plays the game differently; there are DMs that fudge dice (for good and bad reasons no doubt) and there are those that don't. Each to their own. If you don't like the idea that a DM would fudge dice then only play with DMs that have the show DM rolls option on and ignore those that don't.

I believe this is the OP's problem. The GM's manual roll doesn't show all the data of the roll even with Show GM Rolls on. It doesn't tell the players that the GM used a manual entry instead of the result of the roll. I believe the OP is stating that it is currently impossible to be sure that a GM is showing all rolls for him/her to find a game where the GM doesn't fudge rolls.

A legitimate claim, though I think it is still a matter of trust. Find a game where the GM says they don't fudge rolls (either hidden or manual entry) and believe them. If you don't believe them, keep looking.

[Zephyros]

I believe this is the OP's problem. The GM's manual roll doesn't show all the data of the roll even with Show GM Rolls on. It doesn't tell the players that the GM used a manual entry instead of the result of the roll. I believe the OP is stating that it is currently impossible to be sure that a GM is showing all rolls for him/her to find a game where the GM doesn't fudge rolls.

A legitimate claim, though I think it is still a matter of trust. Find a game where the GM says they don't fudge rolls (either hidden or manual entry) and believe them. If you don't believe them, keep looking.

This.

My problem isn't the "trust". Is the consistency of knowing that a DM plays one way or another. If I don't known that the feature is on, how can I create a "trust" with new DMs? Not everybody have a fixed group. I myself like to play with new people from time to time. But because the system "hide" a feature that facilitates fudges/cheating, I will never known if that DM have my style of play or not.

[Niles]

This.

My problem isn't the "trust". Is the consistency of knowing that a DM plays one way or another. If I don't known that the feature is on, how can I create a "trust" with new DMs? Not everybody have a fixed group. I myself like to play with new people from time to time. But because the system "hide" a feature that facilitates fudges/cheating, I will never known if that DM have my style of play or not.

There is a way to tell if the DM is using the manual roll. When the manual roll is used, it doesn't use the shadow dice. The text number just pops up. Of course, he can roll a dice in his own tower creating a shadow roll and then immediately after roll his manual roll and the players would never know the difference. I am a fan of this feature, but it's not because I'm interested in cheating. I am invested in my story lines, and occasionally I need the story to flow a certain way through dice rolls. Here's an example. My group went through the Underdark and faced Lolth. I gave them a weapon that would kill her on a natural 20. A natural 20 never showed up. The battle took hours. I wanted my group to be victorious. I wanted more than just, "OK, she's down to 0 HP, she's dead." I wanted that natural 20 to come up so the whole scene would be more cinematic. It can also shorten battles, which in FG can take up game time. Results can be verbally fudged too if the player rolls in their tower. That being said, it's not something I'd do for every. single. roll. It's when I need events to flow a particular way. My players know I do it, but they trust me implicitly to give them an epic, cinematic story and keep them entertained. I respect your reasons as well.