Fantasy Grounds Unity engine

[jasonthelamb]

From a Steam Reply from Smiteworks that I saw tonight...

"Regarding FGU, it's a big overhaul being built in conjunction with constant updates and new content releases on the core FG program. We hope to have the Alpha build ready at the end of this summer."

[jrh18]

That would be cool. Is this Alpha like Fortnite has been Alpha for a billion years and basically a finished game but not out of alpha? Or is this the traditional (dare I say classic) Alpha where it breaks every 3 seconds and probably isn't all that usable?

[Nylanfs]

Hopefully it's like our Alpha's where it's mostly rock solid. :)

[Davinci522]

I haven’t read anything about the demo, player, DM structure. Is it going to stay the same as current where someone with an ultimate liscence can host has many demo liscences as they want?

[jasonthelamb]

Hopefully it's the type of Alpha I can use! :)

[Zacchaeus]

I haven’t read anything about the demo, player, DM structure. Is it going to stay the same as current where someone with an ultimate liscence can host has many demo liscences as they want?

Read the FAQ linked in the first post of this thread.

[Davinci522]

I read that first and just read it again. I still don’t see an answer to my question. It says that all dlc will be compatible but nothing about liscense tiers.

[Zacchaeus]

It’s in the first question/answer. FG is being ported over to the Inity engine. There will be no difference to the way it works now.

[LordEntrails]

Note, don't expect the Alpha to be publicly available. I wouldn't even expect SW to announce they are testing an alpha.

[Valyar]

With the YouTube teasers, I am sure they have early Alpha or at least something very similar to that. :)

[CatoThe1stElder]

With the YouTube teasers, I am sure they have early Alpha or at least something very similar to that. :)

Let us hope so! I was practically salivating over their demo displaying the weather effects and dynamic lighting! :D

[Beerbelly]

I see something was said about a kickstarter for FGU? Any details on when that will open up?

[LordEntrails]

I see something was said about a kickstarter for FGU? Any details on when that will open up?
No. Nothing has been certain. Only possibilities have been mentioned.

[st4lk3r87]

I know this is not going to be the first iteration of FGU but I'm dreaming of it: https://youtu.be/bSAasp4IQAk
Top down animated 3D map *_________*

[damned]

I know this is not going to be the first iteration of FGU but I'm dreaming of it: https://youtu.be/bSAasp4IQAk
Top down animated 3D map *_________*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=278&v=xJBXbxfTwB4
I think you will have some animation available.

[st4lk3r87]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=278&v=xJBXbxfTwB4
I think you will have some animation available.

Yes I already saw those videos. I hope to see the real potential of unity used as soon as possible 😊

[Valacar]

Don't make me post links to Carl's tabletop connect 3d vtt ... Now that was awesome 3D. Oh the heck with and sorry Carl :) Gherrion created some beautiful maps using the program and was most creative with bread stick :) just FYI for the newer FG users, Carl merged with FG and has been working on the FGU stuff. I still use it to create maps with as well, plowing through undermountain level 1 with my group about 6 months ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWnDyRB5-Gc&feature=youtu.be

[st4lk3r87]

Don't make me post links to Carl's tabletop connect 3d vtt ... Now that was awesome 3D. Oh the heck with and sorry Carl :) Gherrion created some beautiful maps using the program and was most creative with bread stick :) just FYI for the newer FG users, Carl merged with FG and has been working on the FGU stuff. I still use it to create maps with as well, plowing through undermountain level 1 with my group about 6 months ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWnDyRB5-Gc&feature=youtu.be

Yes I know that too. But let me say the maps on the link i posted are definitely more polished in terms of lighting and shadow effects ( no offense )

I'm pretty sure we'll end in that state at some point. I wonder when... in my head it looks like we'll not see this soon... probably a matters of years.

[celestian]

I know this is not going to be the first iteration of FGU but I'm dreaming of it: https://youtu.be/bSAasp4IQAk
Top down animated 3D map *_________*

Looks more like a 3D environment, not just animation. Pretty for sure. Hard to build for most folks. Imagine trying to build something like an entire level of a dungeon in a 3D environment like that. Animating objects/etc... Unity certainly has the ability to do this but I couldn't build a adventure in it (not unity, FGU) because I am no 3D artist or animator. There is something called Talespire that's going neck deep in this style tho.

[st4lk3r87]

Looks more like a 3D environment, not just animation. Pretty for sure. Hard to build for most folks. Imagine trying to build something like an entire level of a dungeon in a 3D environment like that. Animating objects/etc... Unity certainly has the ability to do this but I couldn't build a adventure in it (not unity, FGU) because I am no 3D artist or animator. There is something called Talespire that's going neck deep in this style tho.

When I createa maps sometimes I buy tokens and I compose the map.

I'm not a 3d artist but there's space for a market right there. 3d models sold for virtual table top maps.

[Full Bleed]

I know this is not going to be the first iteration of FGU but I'm dreaming of it: https://youtu.be/bSAasp4IQAk
Top down animated 3D map *_________*

That link you posted was not really a 3d "top down animated map". The creator of those maps is creating 2d video maps using 3d software.

FGU could certainly support maps like that if they supported video maps. This came up recently, and we were basically told it's not happening any time soon. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22089-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-engine&p=390748&viewfull=1#post390748)

I know I finally purchased FG after Smitworks acquired Carl (and TableTop Connect) to support their effort to modernize... and hoped that meant that Carl's light, vision, 3d support, and map-building toolset would be "coming soon" to FGU. But I think the reality is that their DLC expansion/focus was also exploding around the same time. What FGU might be able to do desn't really seem to be their focus right now. Getting out a rock-solid Unity-based FG "emulator" is. It appears that Carl's hands have been somewhat tied by that... but LoS, screen effects, 64 bit support, and advanced map building tools have already been teased... so anyway you slice it, even if FGU isn't going to be the ultimate hybrid lovechild of Tabletop Connect and FG any time soon, it's going to be a massive upgrade.

[st4lk3r87]

Of course I was dreaming of realtime rendering. Not a simple video. I know those are just videos but we also know the direction TableTop Connect was taking. I also know that Smiteworks is focusing more on different features and that's why "I'm dreaming of it". I know it's going to be just a dream for years.

[Fynious]

I'm dreaming that FGu just comes out... This thread is 4 years old and we haven't seen much.. a couple of teaser videos... Be nice to actually get something to actually use. LoS is the main reason I don't use FG's, but also 64bit support, larger maps, etc, etc, etc.. 4 years is a very long time to wait for this. It's to bad because I think with all of these things, Fantasy Grounds would be hands down the best VTT on the market, and not even close.

Fyn

[chopkins779]

^true. My friend had the tabletop connect alpha, but that was years and years ago. Star Citizen may come out before FGU at this point.

[lostsanityreturned]

^true. My friend had the tabletop connect alpha, but that was years and years ago. Star Citizen may come out before FGU at this point.

It gets memed on a lot but starcitizen is making really good progress this year and has pretty much hit every goal as they have arrived.
Took a while, but it really does seem to be in a healthy place development wise.

[Ken L]

Oh gosh, Star citizen and their 200 dollar pre-order early access ships.

[LordEntrails]

Star Citizen? Oh, the Kickstarter from over 5 years ago that has raised over $190 million USD and still hasn't delivered more than a few alpha concept games? And that's "healthy"?

[lostsanityreturned]

Star Citizen? Oh, the Kickstarter from over 5 years ago that has raised over $190 million USD and still hasn't delivered more than a few alpha concept games? And that's "healthy"?

The comllex mmo that keeps releasing new technology before other games and has done a heck of a lot in 5 years, the one that for the last 10 odd months has been great at keeping to dates set and steadily releasing features.
Keep in mind exactly how long mmo development cycles usually are.

Regardless of your personal feelings to the time, the fact is that they are doing well atm. I quallified my statements quite clearly, it was "as of this year".
Anyway as this isn't the place for this argument I leave me comments at this.

[Ken L]

I'm curious if FGU will have playing card support for games. If it doesn't I'll run on another platform for RPGs that incorporate decks (ie: weave society). I know about the deck-as-a-table trick, but the aesthetic of drawing and playing cards is part of the game, more than a random gen (the same argument can be made about FG's 'superior' physics dice).

[Erin Righ]

I'm with Ken on this one, I wouldn't play computer solitaire without the animated cards, so random gen just ain't the same

[LordEntrails]

I've never heard mention of card animation support in FGU. Doesn't mean Carl/John hasn't thought of if, but I don't think it's ever been discussed before. As always, add it to the wishlist to make sure they are aware of it.

Related ideas;
https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=40988
https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=109402

[lostsanityreturned]

I'm curious if FGU will have playing card support for games. If it doesn't I'll run on another platform for RPGs that incorporate decks (ie: weave society). I know about the deck-as-a-table trick, but the aesthetic of drawing and playing cards is part of the game, more than a random gen (the same argument can be made about FG's 'superior' physics dice).

How do you simulate a card deck with a table? Does the DM remove entries as the cards are drawn?

[Erin Righ]

I use this

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?23099-Basic-Card-Tables-Extensions

Thank Trenloe

[Valatar]

The Savage Worlds/Deadlands rulesets have to have card support, do they animate the cards? I've never messed around with them to know.

[lostsanityreturned]

Just gonna put it out there... gm layer support cannot come soon enough.

I want it more than I want dynamic lighting :p

[icedern]

Just gonna put it out there... gm layer support cannot come soon enough.

I want it more than I want dynamic lighting :p

Yeah, honestly I'm not a fan of dynamic lighting. I'm not sure what it is, but once something is visible, I always want to see it. I don't actually get to play much as a player as I'm usually DMing, but when I do, the DM I play with uses roll20 and I just hate the dynamic lighting feature. It get kinda wonky in areas and just is a hindrance more than anything

[lostsanityreturned]

Yeah, honestly I'm not a fan of dynamic lighting. I'm not sure what it is, but once something is visible, I always want to see it. I don't actually get to play much as a player as I'm usually DMing, but when I do, the DM I play with uses roll20 and I just hate the dynamic lighting feature. It get kinda wonky in areas and just is a hindrance more than anything

As a dm i like the freedom of not having to swap to the unmasking tool so frequently. Using it as a dynamic fog of war tool would be nice too ;)

Or just giving us shortcut buttons for the masking tool feature in the program -shakes fist-

[st4lk3r87]

Yeah, honestly I'm not a fan of dynamic lighting. I'm not sure what it is, but once something is visible, I always want to see it. I don't actually get to play much as a player as I'm usually DMing, but when I do, the DM I play with uses roll20 and I just hate the dynamic lighting feature. It get kinda wonky in areas and just is a hindrance more than anything

That's the main problem with Technology. If the user experience sucks it's better not to use it. I hope they know what they are doing.

[Trenloe]

Or just giving us shortcut buttons for the masking tool feature in the program -shakes fist-
Can you expand on this please? There's a shortcut button in the image window you click to enter/exit mask mode. What extra functionality are you looking for?

[lostsanityreturned]

Can you expand on this please? There's a shortcut button in the image window you click to enter/exit mask mode. What extra functionality are you looking for?

By shortcut buttons I meant hotkeys :p. I am used to working in productivity suite programs and not being able to just hit something like ctrl+m to toggle it is immensely frustrating. I have a macro for it on my mouse now, but it is a pain when I use one of my other computers :)

[Caidh Mor]

Yeah, honestly I'm not a fan of dynamic lighting. I'm not sure what it is, but once something is visible, I always want to see it. I don't actually get to play much as a player as I'm usually DMing, but when I do, the DM I play with uses roll20 and I just hate the dynamic lighting feature. It get kinda wonky in areas and just is a hindrance more than anything

That seems largely solvable with a fog of war layer thouvh, if something like that gets implemented. Just like in an FPS, a top layer blocks all vision until first uncovered, but then if you leave that area, you can still plot the terrain, but enemy movements therein go unnoticed.

[IdGibbins]

That seems largely solvable with a fog of war layer thouvh, if something like that gets implemented. Just like in an FPS, a top layer blocks all vision until first uncovered, but then if you leave that area, you can still plot the terrain, but enemy movements therein go unnoticed.

Implementing line-of-sight with fog-of-war is something that has been teased for FGU:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOdUcSCx1-U&t=30m22s

[ChazRambone]

Dynamic Lighting is pretty cool... but takes some time setting up so could take it or leave it.

Dynamic LoS/FoW on the other hand is a game changer, especially when character specific. Having the players call out what they see in character when they peek around the corner for the first time was one of my favorite moments as a DM. It takes away so much meta that most of us take for granted.

[Skeemer]

Hello everyone,

I was just wondering if there was any updates on the release of it. After being at GenCon and seeing what has changed in VTT. Some of the advancements on some of them is really neat. I just don't want to be left behind.

[Ken L]

There's a sticky'd topic for unity, last I recall there was rumor of an alpha by summer's end.

I often bring up the aging status of the software. There's a ton of hope pinned on Unity solving things, but even Dynamic Lighting is years late on comparison charts. FGU will need something to gain back a fraction of the market share it has lost to other platforms. I have my eye on a few things myself.

[lostsanityreturned]

There's a sticky'd topic for unity, last I recall there was rumor of an alpha by summer's end.

I often bring up the aging status of the software. There's a ton of hope pinned on Unity solving things, but even Dynamic Lighting is years late on comparison charts. FGU will need something to gain back a fraction of the market share it has lost to other platforms. I have my eye on a few things myself.

For me it is the core implementation and server / client structure that overall keeps FG as my primary driver. I haven't seen any VTT that have goals in the areas I am in interested in personally. But I agree with you, FGU has a lot riding on it in the long run.

[Stuggesjoerd]

There's a sticky'd topic for unity, last I recall there was rumor of an alpha by summer's end.

I often bring up the aging status of the software. There's a ton of hope pinned on Unity solving things, but even Dynamic Lighting is years late on comparison charts. FGU will need something to gain back a fraction of the market share it has lost to other platforms. I have my eye on a few things myself.

That is also my main concern. Taking a while to get a proper product on the market is never a problem. However, i have seen it more than once that certain products are in development fase and dropped in the end due to aging as technology and developtment has passed them.

Hopefully your comment will be noted.

[damned]

In the time that Unity has been in development around 18 new versions of the current software have also been released.
Along with new rulesets licensed and lots of DLC added.
Unity may or may not be everything that people hope it will - but the current product continues to evolve and improve.

[Valyar]

What I hope for (but probably won’t get) a is proper SDK for doing rulesets, extensions and modifications.

When I was doing GUI programming work long time ago in with WindowsForms, the tools in Visual Studio saved me so much time, pain and agony while adjusting all controls on screen and their settings. I have friends that work in game companies and the most important tools are the one that allow game designer to work without touching the code.
If FG had proper tools that speed up the work and have “intellisense” experience I am pretty sure the amount of extensions, rulesets and the overall quality will explode. Also better documentation won’t hurt at all :)

On many boards the FG is introduced as software with great community and community based resources, but today the amount of people who can develop “production quality” ruleset/extension is not that big number. It is rather small. Games as NWN, SC, Skyrim and other, that provided editors to the community flourished. I have few guys that I introduced to FG that loved it, but when asked how they can make things for it such as theme or modification to the ruleset, the LUA and XML were a turn off.

I write code as part of my job, but I don’t want to do that for my hobby. I want something to allow me to do great things without feeling like I am doing overtime...

[damned]

What I hope for (but probably won’t get) a is proper SDK for doing rulesets, extensions and modifications.

When I was doing GUI programming work long time ago in with WindowsForms, the tools in Visual Studio saved me so much time, pain and agony while adjusting all controls on screen and their settings. I have friends that work in game companies and the most important tools are the one that allow game designer to work without touching the code.
If FG had proper tools that speed up the work and have “intellisense” experience I am pretty sure the amount of extensions, rulesets and the overall quality will explode. Also better documentation won’t hurt at all :)

On many boards the FG is introduced as software with great community and community based resources, but today the amount of people who can develop “production quality” ruleset/extension is not that big number. It is rather small. Games as NWN, SC, Skyrim and other, that provided editors to the community flourished. I have few guys that I introduced to FG that loved it, but when asked how they can make things for it such as theme or modification to the ruleset, the LUA and XML were a turn off.

I write code as part of my job, but I don’t want to do that for my hobby. I want something to allow me to do great things without feeling like I am doing overtime...

It is a nice wish but its not really realistic. NWN sold a million copies in its 1st year alone. Its not even in the same ball park.

[Valyar]

It is a nice wish but its not really realistic.
Depends. For a company that relies also on the community for the longevity of its product, providing this very community with proper tools can lead to surprising results. :)

Also I don't think it is that hard, compared to coding for Unity. What is a ruleset? A set of xml and lua files combined together in specific order in order. All rulesets are layered on CoreRPG, the content are more or less structured in the same way, classes are built with the same controls over and over. You can say that there is finite possibility because the underlying engine is imposing them. The exposed functions from the engine are also pre-defined list.

So what a tool needs to do? To allow you an easy way to generate the necessary files, basic scripts, include them properly, set folder structure, allow you visually to adjust the different controls on a sheet (because this is the most time consuming thing, making the layout and different sheets). Maybe a tool to bulk import content in the DB might be good as well.

I will give my personal story as an example. My groups do not play D&D and Pathfinder. The only reason I purchased FG was the 40kMultiSet by Paul Pratt. Nothing else. I introduced two other people who purchased FG just because of this. One bailed out after he discovered how impossible is for him to put all his creative energy into form. Then I discovered other rulesets and extensions, and started playing other systems, but the moment when ruleset is not properly working or the author is no longer maintaining it - we have problem. Many people will just drop FG. I can find myself around the code and fix the most annoying errors, but sometimes it is too much to follow, to read and cross check without proper tools. Starting from scratch is something I am eager to do, but for now the time required to do proper ruleset is a bridge too far for me. For the reason stated above :)

Anyway, maybe the people like me are minority. But a man can dream :)

[lostsanityreturned]

Really a ruleset editor would start with a character sheet creator.

But other things take precedence atm and rightfully so.

[Bidmaron]

This topic has been discussed many times. It is just not going to happen in any significant way. It is unfair to compare Visual Basic forms editor from one of the world's largest companies with Fantasy Grounds. The effort to produce what you want is enormous, and, even if you did it, the maintenance as the program evolves is daunting.

Most users would not want SW to devote the resources to do what Valyar wants, as it would rob from the few resources available to evolve the program and add additional rulesets.

If you doubt this, just look at the Wiki. Unless one of the community folks does so, the only thing that really gets much update from SW is the API wiki (and even that lapses in some cases). There is a ruleset tutorial in there, and look at how out-of-date it is. It is almost useless.

And this is not SW's fault. I think there focus is spot-on. Work on getting Unity out, and continue evolving what we have. Add a few rulesets if possible. I believe their focus is entirely appropriate.

So, Valyar, either buckle down and figure it out, or keep wishing. It will not happen, and even if it does, it will languish into increasing uselessness as each new FG revision comes out.

There are plenty of examples of good rulesets and extensions out there. Study them. I am not a professional programmer, and I've been able to figure out what I need to (with the help of the community). It isn't that hard, especially for a programmer. It does take a lot of effort. (I will confess, however, that I have a long way to go to completely understand the incredibly versatile [and therefore complex] UI xml tags and attributes).

Please don't take this a personal attack because it is not. I have been around here a while, as you can tell from my join date, and this discussion has at least been an A-1R, as we say in the Navy (meaning it is a maintenance action that occurs annually or more often if equipment condition warrants [the 'R' part]).

[Guoccamole]

2c from left field...

I think both sides to this discussion have merit. The crux of the issue (with nod to size of billionaire corporations) is critical mass. SW & Fantasy Grounds have such avid and loyal customers that it seems reasonable to think they could light on fire in additional ways... especially since they’re paying to save themselves time at the gaming table, and DM’s always want to save themselves more time. That’s what SW FG does so brilliantly.

So Valyar is simply requesting more of that... better leverage before, during, after gaming table.

But the dollars are definitiely not there right now as they are spent carefully on maintaining classic FG and (fingers crossed) building newfangled Unity FG. And the light is at the end of the tunnel, so everything seems to be turning out swimmingly. So money is not there for non-critical new features (e.g., forms).

But what about avid customer critical mass... which is what I believe Valyar’s original point was? Could SW keep simplifying certain areas to enable FG newbies to customize and build? Even if SW FG can *not* do that explicitly now, they can (and I hope do) keep any eye out to do that... especially as they build FGU from whole cloth. Or as they build plumbing for the games systems.

All that said, the key issue is going to be critical mass. And I think that discussion will be easier (fingers crossed) to have after FGU hits the streets. Presumably, SW will gain many new customers who have been awaiting key/snazzy features, such as automatic line of sight, map building, and all the new and wondrous features FGU brings. If there is an upswing in users, and they still have nerdy technical bent, then (as now) it would be good for SW keep any eye to simplifying and documenting back-end FGU APIs, scripting, etc., and ease entry (slippery slope, ideally) into contributing “back” into the community... with game systems, mods, etc..

... Competing Game Engines?

For myself, I’d like to know what’s up with the competing rules engines? Core or Dulux-Oz? Or are they merging? I use a lot of Dulux-Oz extensions (which are great). So I’m also wondering if everyone is working together, or competition is a good thing, and what works for FGU? All lua, I gather (good enough). But what’s the DM strategy with extensions at this juncture? (Whoops, just switched topics. Doh.)

[LordEntrails]

...
But what about avid customer critical mass... which is what I believe Valyar’s original point was? Could SW keep simplifying certain areas to enable FG newbies to customize and build? Even if SW FG can *not* do that explicitly now, they can (and I hope do) keep any eye out to do that... especially as they build FGU from whole cloth. Or as they build plumbing for the games systems.
SW has made it easier to create content for DM/GM's. At least in some rulesets. For instance, one can now create classes, races, and pre-generated characters within the UI for 5E, which used to all have to be done in the xml itself.


... Competing Game Engines?

For myself, I’d like to know what’s up with the competing rules engines? Core or Dulux-Oz? Or are they merging? I use a lot of Dulux-Oz extensions (which are great). So I’m also wondering if everyone is working together, or competition is a good thing, and what works for FGU? All lua, I gather (good enough). But what’s the DM strategy with extensions at this juncture? (Whoops, just switched topics. Doh.)
Rulesets not engines :)

CoreRPG is the generic ruleset that SW provides. DORCore is a community ruleset that among other reasons Dulux has created so that other rulesets developers can use it as a base to build off of and then Dulux will then have fewer rulesets that he has to support with his DOE extensions.

Given that life has impacted development of DORCore, and all the other community ruleset developers have limited time, I don't know if any have commited to converting over to DORCore. That's something that we can expect to develop in time.

[Guoccamole]

TY! Sounds like situation is still developing. All the best for Dulux-Oz. He has (shares!) great extensions. I do look forward to some sort of consolidation so the path is clear.

Thank you for the distinction between ruleset and engine with explanation of CoreRPG vs. DORCore.

(Dare I ask) what is an engine... in FG terms?

[LordEntrails]

(Dare I ask) what is an engine... in FG terms?
We don't normally talk about "engine" but when we do, that would be referring to the FG application itself. The core executable of FG that the comes before the rulesets get loaded. We (the community) don't have access to modify the engine itself.

[Guoccamole]

Awesome. TY for rapid education!-)

[Valyar]

Guoccamole, spon on. Exactly what I mean with my post and you elaborated well. Thank you for that. :)

I believe this should be the end-game for SW and Fantasy Grounds. But to reach the that phase, a lot of work needs to be done and under ideal circumstances this will include FGU as modern and extensible platform, more products, more features unmatched by the competition and last, but not least (maybe the most important nowadays) - much better marketing and advertising to increase the fan base.

I hope they are making the right design decisions with FGU and the technologies used will allow them to burst forward with features and innovations once it is released. Dynamic lights is not something spectacular for product at launch, especially if the UI will remain as is for now (it was stated few times in this thread), but I believe that this step "back" is just a preparation for a leap. :)

@Bidmaron - I have no issues with what you said. I share your position on the matter, though this does not keep me from wanting more and saying it loudly. :) As long as nobody acts as avid fanboy that has no reason, blindly defending the object of his deification I am cool :)

[Bidmaron]

Wel, Valyar I hope we see a lot more of you here. It is possible (or not) that the interface may come to grow on you. I have come to appreciate it because it is monstrously flexible. Also the fact that it is different from most windows apps reinforces the suspension of reality that is really important with fantasy role playing.
You will find no shortage of folks here who will help you if you decide to take the plunge.

[epithet]

...
If you doubt this, just look at the Wiki. Unless one of the community folks does so, the only thing that really gets much update from SW is the API wiki (and even that lapses in some cases). There is a ruleset tutorial in there, and look at how out-of-date it is. It is almost useless.

And this is not SW's fault. I think there focus is spot-on. Work on getting Unity out, and continue evolving what we have. Add a few rulesets if possible. I believe their focus is entirely appropriate.
...
Say what now? You're right that the wiki is almost useless, but I can't agree that it isn't SW's fault. Sure, making the Unity version a reality is important, but I don't think it is "entirely appropriate" that someone who picks up Fantasy Grounds as a new user has to figure out how to use it without reasonably complete documentation. Hell, I've been using FG heavily for years now and I still have questions for which there are no published answers. While FG does have a remarkable community that is very helpful, it's not really appropriate to depend on a forum to replace a user's guide.

[ddavison]

The wiki has been getting updated fairly recently with new tutorials, set up guides and other commonly requested items. The focus previously was on making video tutorials on the YouTube channel. We've decided to go back and start updating the non-video stuff as well since it is easier to consume for some people and easier to search.

Making a system that is easy to support any game system ever made is a great task to strive towards but is not the most financially sound target. Combine every single game system ever created and it is less popular than D&D 5E. Industry reports, our own analytics and those of our competitors that are posted publicly all point to the same conclusion. Some systems, such as 40K, Vampire and the like are worthwhile alongside an official license. Other systems are not even financially viable with a license and much less-so without a license.

With all that said, we want to support as many games as we possibly can. If we can pair up a community dev with a small Indie publisher to support the fans and return a bit of money back to these creative folks, we will. As a result, we have around 1200 DLC from around 80 different publishers and Indie artists. This covers 22 official rulesets. There are 42 fan-made rulesets on top of this and systems like CoreRPG and MoreCore that support multiple systems.

[Guoccamole]

Doug, you make it sound easy!-) TY

[Bidmaron]

I stand by my post. SW is, in my opinion of the gaming software market (and this includes pro fantasy, another team I have the utmost of respect for), the most responsible and reasonable in the balance between putting food on their tables and supporting the community they love.

If there is a documentation problem, it is guys like me that are to blame for that because SW is moving their platform forward in ways that are just fabulous. We need to figure out a way to fill in the gaps while SW marches on!

[damned]

Say what now? You're right that the wiki is almost useless, but I can't agree that it isn't SW's fault. Sure, making the Unity version a reality is important, but I don't think it is "entirely appropriate" that someone who picks up Fantasy Grounds as a new user has to figure out how to use it without reasonably complete documentation. Hell, I've been using FG heavily for years now and I still have questions for which there are no published answers. While FG does have a remarkable community that is very helpful, it's not really appropriate to depend on a forum to replace a user's guide.

Have you read the Users Guide?

[Andraax]

While FG does have a remarkable community that is very helpful, it's not really appropriate to depend on a forum to replace a user's guide.

Have you tried clicking here?

https://s3.silent-tower.org/images/Startup.JPG

[epithet]

Have you read the Users Guide?


Have you tried clicking here?

Of course I have. There is a lot of useful information for a new user, but it has some serious holes in it. Like I said, I've been using the software now for several years, and I've run into plenty of situations where the documentation is non-existent and the answers you get on the forum are based on obsolete information, no matter how helpful the poster is trying to be.

I'm sure you'd like an example, right? Information about critical hits and how to modify them is simply not in the documentation for D&D 5e, with one exception. The combat tracker effect for critical damage (eg "DMG: 1d8 slashing, critical") is documented, but that might lead you to believe that you could add a line of damage to an item on your actions tab with "slashing,critical" damage... you can't. There's not really anywhere that tells you up-front that you're going to have to learn different sets of effect vocabulary for weapon properties, combat tracker effects, and PC sheets, and NPC sheets.

If you want to learn how to expand the critical range of a weapon, you're not going to find that on in the user guide. Nowhere outside of the forums is it documented that adding a trait called "Improved Critical" will give your NPC a expanded crit range of 19-20. Likewise, nowhere in the user guide will you find out that you can add a weapon property of "crit range 19" to do that the same thing with a single weapon on the PC sheet without having to apply it to all the weapon attacks in that range (melee, ranged) in the weapons meta dialog. No official documentation exists of the fact that you can accomplish this on the combat tracker using "CRIT: 19" as an effect.

Let me be clear--I'm not down on Smiteworks or Fantasy Grounds, I use the hell out of the latter and appreciate the constant work that the former put into the program. All I'm saying is that the documentation is woefully incomplete. One of the reasons for that, it seems from my observation, is that Moon Wizard will implement a "fix" for a problem someone is having or a new class that has just been released in Somebody's Guide to Something, and not tell anyone outside of the test version thread or a sometimes cryptic reference in the patch notes. There doesn't seem to be a process by which that is translated into plain text instruction in the user guide. A corollary is that the fix or implementation is often limited in scope, leading to a patchwork that can be confusing, without any clear map to the dungeon.

[LordEntrails]

Incomplete documentation on software is not unique to FG. Nor is it even particularly surprising that new and advanced features are poorly documented. Doesn't the agile methodology say something like "only document what must be documented when it must be documented"?

Specifically I'm looking at a software company I've worked with intimately for almost two decades. Last year they grossed over $1 billion USD. They are considered to have much better than average documentation in the industry they are in (enterprise product life cycle management software). Yet I personally open 1-2 dozen tickets a year with them for issues that are simply not documented.

That company, just like SmiteWorks, has to balance resources. Do they spend time improving their software? Or documenting it? It's not one or the other, it's a matter of degrees and priorities.

Another thought, Doug, John, Carl, et al are capable of doing software development and software documentation. The community is capable of doing documentation, but not (generally) development. So, leaving much of the documentation to the community is a bonus, because that means SW can spend more of their time on development (which we generally can not).

Now that doesn't mean SW isn't responsible for documentation, but really, Mr. Z has already said he has the Crit issue on his list for updating, give him a chance to get it updated. If their are other shortcomings in the documentation, point them out, and they will be prioritized. Or, write up a draft of the wiki page you want updated/created/changed and post it so the wiki mods can review it and update/add it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a one side vs another issue. It's a discussion (a civil one) where their is not perfect solution or absolutely correct answer. Their are caveats, trade-offs, and opinions.

[Valyar]

If there is a will, there is a way. Maintaining documentation is not impossible task, if you approach the problem the right way. The more you delay this, the more tedious work you will have to do and the more your body and mind will rebel against it, finding excuses not to do it. There is no excuse for lack of or bad documentation.

Code snippets with examples, screenshots, comments in XML/LUA files are just few examples of what can be done. Video tutorials are inefficient - they require more time to produce and deliver far less than a well written documentation.

[Ampersandrew]

Video tutorials are not inefficient - they waste more time to produce and deliver far less than well written documentation.

I think that mabe you have written the complete opposite of what you were trying to say.

[Valyar]

I think that mabe you have written the complete opposite of what you were trying to say.
Yes, I failed to proofread my post before submitting it. No excuse for this as well :)

[lostsanityreturned]

If there is a will, there is a way. Maintaining documentation is not impossible task, if you approach the problem the right way. The more you delay this, the more tedious work you will have to do and the more your body and mind will rebel against it, finding excuses not to do it. There is no excuse for lack of or bad documentation.

Code snippets with examples, screenshots, comments in XML/LUA files are just few examples of what can be done. Video tutorials are inefficient - they require more time to produce and deliver far less than a well written documentation.

I agree, but this isn't really the place to discuss it with other forum users :P. A new thread would be better.

I have plans to collate and update information myself but I am not going to bother as an end user until unity comes out.

[Valyar]

I agree, but this isn't really the place to discuss it with other forum users :P. A new thread would be better.

I have plans to collate and update information myself but I am not going to bother as an end user until unity comes out.

What I say is valid not only for other community developers, but for SW themselves. I believe that the refdoc pages and the wiki need an overhaul.
And yes, you are right when you say you won't bother until FGU is out. I believe we need FGU out more than anything :)

[lostsanityreturned]

What I say is valid not only for other community developers, but for SW themselves. I believe that the refdoc pages and the wiki need an overhaul.


I know, I am just saying that this is a community themed thread regarding unity.

I really hope we get an announcement as to the progress -rubs hands-

[LordEntrails]

...
I really hope we get an announcement as to the progress -rubs hands-
We did. Doug said upthread in the last day that they have an internal date for this year for an alpha build.I'd go back and read just what he said so theirs no misinterpretation of what I said.

[RoleforFun]

We did. Doug said upthread in the last day that they have an internal date for this year for an alpha build.I'd go back and read just what he said so theirs no misinterpretation of what I said.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing this post from Doug. Where is it again? Thanks!

[Andraax]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing this post from Doug. Where is it again? Thanks!

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45206-FantasyGrounds_x64-exe&p=403357&viewfull=1#post403357

[Ampersandrew]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45206-FantasyGrounds_x64-exe&p=403357&viewfull=1#post403357

That's not upthread, that's in a different thread, one about x64. Doug talked about Unity, but the thread was about x64.

[lostsanityreturned]

The _x64 version was released at my request. The x indicates that it is an experimental build. The point of the exercise is to determine how stable it is and to identify any errors that may help us isolate and correct the issue. Because Fantasy Grounds Classic and Fantasy Grounds Unity will both be available and supported at the same time, it is important for us to move FGC to a 64 bit platform to overcome one of the biggest hurdles we currently have - memory usage limitations of a 32-bit application. Some of the areas that have been highlighted as unstable currently are within the image masking and cursor areas. There may be a dependency to a library that we will need to research and replace with a 64-bit version. This is similar to how we have a LIVE, TEST and DEV build channel available. Any step-by-step instructions on recreating bugs or issues will help us recreate them internally and work towards providing a stable future release.

I'm personally encouraged that the # of issues for _x64 are as low as they are. Moon Wizard is much more cautious because those seemingly minor items could end up being a giant rabbit hole of research and development. We are working very hard towards a working Alpha build of FGU by the end of this summer. We were shooting for an internal date of end-of-August, but we are not there yet.


FGC works in 32-bit if you take steps to manage memory usage.
FGU getting released this year is critical to continued growth and momentum of Fantasy Grounds
FGC64 is a nice to have for the continued support of FGC going forward but it is not critical. We will work on it as time permits and I expect fully that it will be available before the end of this year but only after FGU launches its Kickstarter.



For the history of this thread.

also
"We are working very hard towards a working Alpha build of FGU by the end of this summer. We were shooting for an internal date of end-of-August, but we are not there yet."

Unless he means Autumn/Spring we shouldn't expect an alpha till next year.

[Andraax]

That's not upthread, that's in a different thread, one about x64. Doug talked about Unity, but the thread was about x64.

That's spelled "Thank you for digging this up for me."

[LordEntrails]

I was the one that thought Doug's quote was in this thread. I was wrong. Thank you to Andraax for finding the correct quote in a different thread and providing the link to it.

Mistakes happen folks, not that big of a deal that I got things wrong and thanks once again to Andraax and lostsanityreturned for providing the link and the quote.

[Illrigger]

Now that we are closer to a beta release, is there any update on system requirements? CPU, RAM, GPU? I am looking at picking up some cheap laptops for in-house FG use, and want make sure (within reason) I'm not wasting money. I am thinking of some used/refurb 1st generation Surface Pro units (about the cheapest decent option for a 1080p screen), so they would have a Core i5 3317U CPU/GPU and 4GB of RAM.

[Valyar]

PC dedicated to FG? I think the RAM is not going to be enough if you gonna run Windows ;)

[Nylanfs]

There have been some people reporting issues with some built-in intel graphics so you might be wary of that.

[Valyar]

I noticed on two separate systems using the integrated intel video that FG is sluggish when dragging text heavy windows across the desktop. Hopefully this will be addressed in FGU. When forcing the GPU to be used with FG all is fine.

[Illrigger]

There have been some people reporting issues with some built-in intel graphics so you might be wary of that.

With the Unity version specifically? I've been using an OG Surface Pro for my FGC usage for a long time without much issue (one of the reasons I was considering getting more now that they are so cheap), but our games have tended to be pretty light. I recently moved to a Surface Pro 2017 M3 version and no issues there either.

[Zacchaeus]

With the Unity version specifically? I've been using an OG Surface Pro for my FGC usage for a long time without much issue (one of the reasons I was considering getting more now that they are so cheap), but our games have tended to be pretty light. I recently moved to a Surface Pro 2017 M3 version and no issues there either.

Since Unity isn't out we can't say what the specific requirements will be. If you aren't having issues with the same machine that you are considering buying more of then there won't be an issue with the current version of FG. But as noted above 4GB of RAM is on the low side and there have been reports of issues with laptops in particular with built in graphics.

[pindercarl]

I noticed on two separate systems using the integrated intel video that FG is sluggish when dragging text heavy windows across the desktop. Hopefully this will be addressed in FGU. When forcing the GPU to be used with FG all is fine.

The integrated graphics issue with FGC is related to FGC's use of DirectX 9. FGU uses up-to-date libraries, so this should not be an issue. As has been noted 4GB of RAM is on the low side. An advantage of FGU over FGC is the move to a native 64-bit executable, allowing for access to more than 4GB of memory. It is too early to make any hardware recommendations.

[Nylanfs]

Note that MW and Doug haven't committed to a 64-bit right out of the gate (AFAIK) Carl, I think there were still questions on some of the libraries needed evaluated. Don't want to make it sound too definite. ;)

[pindercarl]

Note that MW and Doug haven't committed to a 64-bit right out of the gate (AFAIK) Carl, I think there were still questions on some of the libraries needed evaluated. Don't want to make it sound too definite. ;)

That references the 64-bit version of FGC. FGU doesn't share any libraries with FGC.

[Illrigger]

The integrated graphics issue with FGC is related to FGC's use of DirectX 9. FGU uses up-to-date libraries, so this should not be an issue. As has been noted 4GB of RAM is on the low side. An advantage of FGU over FGC is the move to a native 64-bit executable, allowing for access to more than 4GB of memory. It is too early to make any hardware recommendations.

Thanks for the info - I'll try and find a cheap solution, but 8GB RAM and 1080p minimum is getting into the "this is gonna hurt" price range. ;)

[damned]

Especially in the US you will also have access to a lot of refurbished models with some warranty.
Id look at some of those if on a tight budget.

[garrion_sw]

I'm sure you guys are well-covered and I am by no means a programmer, so take that into account. I just wanted to share this with you in case it contains any assets you could use in this project. This is a Unity Humble Bundle with a lot of content.

https://www.humblebundle.com/games/unity-bundle

A question to go with it, if I were to purchase these assets would it be possible to apply some of them through custom ruleset and extension scripting as we do now. This is all taking into account that we have to wait for the finished product.

[LordEntrails]

...
A question to go with it, if I were to purchase these assets would it be possible to apply some of them through custom ruleset and extension scripting as we do now. This is all taking into account that we have to wait for the finished product.
I'm also not a dev, so can only pass on my impressions from the forums here. The only things we (the community) might be able to use from that bundle would be the sounds. All of the others appear to require integration to the core Unity engine, something we probably won't have access to with FGU. And I say the sounds only if they are in some 'normal' type of format that can be accessed like any other media file.

That said, if Doug, John, or Carl come around, they would be able to give a definitive answer.

[garrion_sw]

The only things we (the community) might be able to use from that bundle would be the sounds.

I was mainly curious if the visual effects and sounds would be able to be integrated by the community via code. I'm not sure if the data is in a standard form or not.

[LordEntrails]

I was mainly curious if the visual effects and sounds would be able to be integrated by the community via code. I'm not sure if the data is in a standard form or not.
I doubt it. It has been said that the extension model will remain the same, xml and LUA access/modules and no access directly to the engine.

But, map effects have already been demo'd with FGU so we (the community) won't have to add that capability. Sounds are probably not going to be included in FGU version 1, but, they might. We just don't know at this point.

[dellanx]

Are there any projections on possible Alpha, Beta or release dates?

Thanks!

[ddavison]

Are there any projections on possible Alpha, Beta or release dates?

Thanks!

Well, my projection was the end of Aug 2018 -- so I'm going to let John throw out dates next. :pirate:

[Patou]

Well, my projection was the end of Aug 2018 -- so I'm going to let John throw out dates next. :pirate:

This is like a major tease! I'm just dying to see my players faces when I project this onto my gaming table with added extra! OMG! I'm just waiting for this to get out so I can upgrade my laptop as needed.

[JohnQPublic]

Are there any projections on possible Alpha, Beta or release dates?

Thanks!

They are very careful not to give any dates. They have said they were hoping for an alpha/beta run this year, but let's be honest - that's not going to happen. This thread is 4 years old. They have '1 and a half' devs working on it. Don't hold your breath.

[gaara6666]

Well with all the hard work they have done t make it upwards compatible with all of FGC content, and the fact that the addition of official 5E support I know hjas added a lot more work, revenue, and resource management. I love FGC as is and I am patient for FGU. Trust me...been using fantasy grounds since 2008... I know the struggle life heh.

David, John, Carl you keep on keeping on guys and when we see the premiere of FGU alpha or beta etc we will know it will have been as polished and developed as it deserved to be

[Valyar]

I really wonder what has been done for those 4 years...

[Ampersandrew]

I really wonder what has been done for those 4 years...

It's called software development. ;)

Writing a large application is not a trivial task. Having to make it functionally equivalent to an existing application is a pain in the nether regions.

I'm kinda hoping Otis wasn't prophetic here

"You know she's waiting
Just anticipating
The thing that she'll never, never, never, never possess, yeah, yeah
But while she's there waiting, and without them
Try a little tenderness
That's all you gotta do"

[LordEntrails]

I really wonder what has been done for those 4 years...
I kind of had to look at this too.
So FGU has about 6 man years of development into it. How does that compare to other software applications?

Well, multiple sources indicate that for a professional phone app, they take about 2 man years to develop. That's for an app with something like 25 functions. FG probably has an order of magnitude more than that.

I tried finding some numbers for platform games, and those estimate are all over the place, and depend upon what you count in the numbers. But it would not be out of line to estimate 20-30 man years (i.e. a dozen developers for 2-3 years)

I found some estimate (again rough) for business software. Things basically founded on a database with restricted user access and about 20 different "views" or reports. Those estimates are in the 4-8 man year ball park.

Now, those are numbers for v1.0 applications. FGU is not v1.0. Is has a definition of needed functions, it has a UI, but it also has a legacy of years worth of a thousand+ DLC things it has to be backwards compatible with, it has current capabilities that have to be reproduces or carefully considered for customer impact before being removed or changed.

Now, ALL of those numbers are highly debatable, and hopefully we won't devolve into debating them (I won't bother engaging), as they only to serve the purpose to say;
'6 man years of development is totally reasonable to expect for a program like FGU. And another 50% wouldn't be out of line either.'

[st4lk3r87]

I kind of had to look at this too.
So FGU has about 6 man years of development into it. How does that compare to other software applications?

Well, multiple sources indicate that for a professional phone app, they take about 2 man years to develop. That's for an app with something like 25 functions. FG probably has an order of magnitude more than that.

I tried finding some numbers for platform games, and those estimate are all over the place, and depend upon what you count in the numbers. But it would not be out of line to estimate 20-30 man years (i.e. a dozen developers for 2-3 years)

I found some estimate (again rough) for business software. Things basically founded on a database with restricted user access and about 20 different "views" or reports. Those estimates are in the 4-8 man year ball park.

Now, those are numbers for v1.0 applications. FGU is not v1.0. Is has a definition of needed functions, it has a UI, but it also has a legacy of years worth of a thousand+ DLC things it has to be backwards compatible with, it has current capabilities that have to be reproduces or carefully considered for customer impact before being removed or changed.

Now, ALL of those numbers are highly debatable, and hopefully we won't devolve into debating them (I won't bother engaging), as they only to serve the purpose to say;
'6 man years of development is totally reasonable to expect for a program like FGU. And another 50% wouldn't be out of line either.'

The only thing I miss the most right now is something similar to a DevBlog.

[shadzar]

Well, my projection was the end of Aug 2018 -- so I'm going to let John throw out dates next. :pirate:

...and then add 3 months to it as "they" say, since a "date" was asked about. :p

[Ken L]

Well, multiple sources indicate that for a professional phone app, they take about 2 man years to develop. That's for an app with something like 25 functions. FG probably has an order of magnitude more than that.


As a developer of mobile software from the bottom up (the so called and popularly 'assumed' title full-stack). That's ... pretty bad. But if you're referring to something like a mobile game, yes assuming a team of effort. For most utility applications, and even something as complex as a VNC viewer, the turn around time was less than 8 months for a single guy on his free time.


The main issue FG has to deal with is legacy code and backwards compatibility. If they started from scratch, the turnaround would perhaps be 2 years before an alpha for a team of 2/3.

Generally I treat FGU like George R. R. Martin's book release dates.

2016 said it would be 2017, last year they said it would be this year, and ... now it's 2019 / undetermined.

We have gotten some interesting feature footage though which is nice.

[Callum]

The trick I employ with FGU is simply to not spend any time thinking about it! I currently have a great piece of software that lets me game with my friends remotely, and I make the most of that. Better still, the company behind it keeps developing and improving the software, passing those improvements on to me for free! At some point in the future, the improvement will take the form of a new version - but why worry about that now, when I can just enjoy my gaming?

[Mellock]

I've been playing since 2007. That was when version 2 was released. 3 people had been working on it for years back then. It was already a robust program. Since then, over 10 years of features have been bolted on. Now they want to redo all that work with 3 programmers, but one of whom has to run and coordinate the business, and one who still has to support the previous version. I really wouldn't underestimate the insane behemoth amount of code that has to be ported over, or features that you have to replicate in a completely different engine, and how little you can get done in a day sometimes, when your attention is drawn away by some bug report. I also wouldn't expect the alpha to be immediately useful for your regular game.

[Valyar]

Maybe this has been already answered, but have to ask:
Will FGU run in Mac and/or Linux and if yes - what will be required?

VirtualBox, Parallels and similar virtualization product are the easy answer, but they require skills and add overhead that some users don’t have or want.

[Zacchaeus]

Maybe this has been already answered, but have to ask:
Will FGU run in Mac and/or Linux and if yes - what will be required?

VirtualBox, Parallels and similar virtualization product are the easy answer, but they require skills and add overhead that some users don’t have or want.

Read the FAQ in the first post.

[Jiminimonka]

Thanks for the info - I'll try and find a cheap solution, but 8GB RAM and 1080p minimum is getting into the "this is gonna hurt" price range. ;)

Maybe 10 years ago, thats a low end PC these days.

[lostsanityreturned]

Maybe 10 years ago, thats a low end PC these days.

Depends on the country and the formfactor of the computer.

Second hand you can do wonders with old office computer components at that performance point that will run fantasygrounds. I wager a tower can be built for ~$100-150usd.

But getting into laptops or someone wanting to use a slate (which I wouldn't recommend the latter). That makes it more difficult.

Then as I said, countries and economic states make things really difficult.

[TheoGeek]

Second hand you can do wonders with old office computer components at that performance point that will run fantasygrounds. I wager a tower can be built for ~$100-150usd.



This!

There are plenty of decent office type PCs on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist around here for $150-$200 that could easily run FG.

[Elderith]

i don't know if this is the best place to put a suggestion on things I would like to see with FGU but some sort of extension suport like nexus mod manage that will update your extensions when a know one comes out so you don't have to go there and do it yourselfe every time. it is nuthing major, but if you all are wonting to make sure this program is more user friendly then that would be somthing i would highly recamend seting up at some point.

[celestian]

i don't know if this is the best place to put a suggestion on things I would like to see with FGU but some sort of extension suport like nexus mod manage that will update your extensions when a know one comes out so you don't have to go there and do it yourselfe every time.

I like this idea a lot. Having a "community" addons section to add/manage/update would be brilliant. It would help to ensure that people have the most current and a more accurate "what works" and what doesn't and ease of access for everyone.

That said, it'll be a difficult thing to implement and manage ;)

[The High Druid]

dulux-oz is working on a (community) extension updater:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43984-DOE-REMU-(Ruleset-Extension-amp-Module-Updater)-Extension&p=391144#post391144

[ddavison]

i don't know if this is the best place to put a suggestion on things I would like to see with FGU but some sort of extension suport like nexus mod manage that will update your extensions when a know one comes out so you don't have to go there and do it yourselfe every time. it is nuthing major, but if you all are wonting to make sure this program is more user friendly then that would be somthing i would highly recamend seting up at some point.

We have plans for something like that down the road along with a community creations storefront where you can browse and subscribe to things.

[Valatar]

We have plans for something like that down the road along with a community creations storefront where you can browse and subscribe to things.

That would be extremely badass. Definitely please make that happen.

[epithet]

I see that your Ultimate license is on sale, including the Full to Ultimate upgrade. I've been planning to pick that up for two reasons, the first being that I could then join my own game from a 2nd computer, and the second being to cover my "upgrade to Unity" fee. My players are all already licensed.

May I suggest an "evergreen" license option on the FG store? If I could have some certainty that today's purchase would include the license for the Unity version--whenever it comes out--I would already have bought it. I know that you've talked about doing something like this via kickstarter, but an all-platform ultimate license is what I actually want.

[Valyar]

I don't think FGU license can be considered as evergreen. It has been stated that only the newest purchases will be upgraded for free, all the rest should pay upgrade fee based on the time they own the respective license.

[Nylanfs]

Relevent info.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?43254-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-FAQ
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22089-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-engine

[Bonkon]

I don't think FGU license can be considered as evergreen. It has been stated that only the newest purchases will be upgraded for free, all the rest should pay upgrade fee based on the time they own the respective license.

Good Day All :)
Perhaps I misread what the question was but I interpreted it to be a new tier of purchase: Demo-Standard-Ultimate-Evergreen. Paying a fee up front to ensure you are not charged later.

[LordEntrails]

Good Day All :)
Perhaps I misread what the question was but I interpreted it to be a new tier of purchase: Demo-Standard-Ultimate-Evergreen. Paying a fee up front to ensure you are not charged later.
Evergreen licenses really don't make business sense. A license to use software and all derivative versions of the software forever. Not a sustainable business model. At least not at a purchase point most users would consider reasonable.

The one-time license already is a "forever" license, for the current version (3) and all of it's maintenance iterations. Not for new versions that may (and we can safely assume will) be released.

The only software companies I know of that do perpetual licenses (and even most of them are moving to subscription models) also restrict their licenses to the current version, AND they require 15% annual maintenance be paid if you want support or miner versions/bug fixes.

I could see an evergreen license retail for something like $350,000. That would give a monthly interest income to SmiteWorks of about $10 for 100 years, if I did the calculations right (5% interest, 100 year compound). Of course, with recent EU regulations that mean that software can be an asset that can be resold or willed to children, Smiteworks might have to assume 1000 years on the life of your purchase, and that gives me a number like $1,.12,623,080,397,278,07e,+25.00 which is more money that I will ever make. Of course, those calculations ignore inflation, so yea they are not high enough. At that point, you might as well just see if you can buy the company from John and Doug.

[ddavison]

Did I just hear that LordEntrails is willing to send us $350K for a forever license? Let me know if you need the mailing address. :P

[LordEntrails]

Did I just hear that LordEntrails is willing to send us $350K for a forever license? Let me know if you need the mailing address. :P
Uh yea... that's what I said, until my wife looked over my shoulder and starting beating me! Don't send your address, my wife might visit!

[Andraax]

Actually, a more reasonable amount to use for an "evergreen" license would be around $1,200. If you assume an average income rate of 10% per year for investments (reasonable if it's invested in something like an S&P index fund - long term average is 12.11%) then that amount would yield ~$120 per annum (~$10 per month), in perpetuity.

(BTW, this is me telling LordEntrails he did the calculation wrong... ;-) He likely mixed up "present value" and "future value".)

[LordEntrails]

Actually, a more reasonable amount to use for an "evergreen" license would be around $1,200. If you assume an average income rate of 10% per year for investments (reasonable if it's invested in something like an S&P index fund - long term average is 12.11%) then that amount would yield ~$120 per annum (~$10 per month), in perpetuity.

(BTW, this is me telling LordEntrails he did the calculation wrong... ;-) )
Doesn't surprise me, but I did use an online financial calculator. You're seems to simple to me :)

[Andraax]

Yeah, the calculation for a "perpetual bond" (which this is) is vastly simplified. Since the "present value" (starting amount) and "future value" (ending amount) is the same, and number of periods don't matter (it's actually infinite, so you can use any number), the only numbers that matter are the periodic payments ($120) and the period interest (10%).

PV of Perpetuity (https://financeformulas.net/Perpetuity.html)

[Andraax]

And, BTW, using your initial base for a 100 year annuity, with an investment income of 5%, the calculation works out to (though like I pointed out, 10% is more reasonable):

https://s3.silent-tower.org/images/Annuity.JPG

Annuity Calculator (https://www.zenwealth.com/BusinessFinanceOnline/TVM/Annuities.html)

[Bonkon]

Good Day All :)
Wow, I mentioned my inturpertation of a post and learn LordEntrails is crazy rich and I need to chat with Andraax about my retirement account t :)
But I do agree that an Evergreen make little business sense, I got the lifetime license offered by LotRO back when it came out and have spent $0 in the last 11 years on it (I think that is how long) :)

[celestian]

Good Day All :)
Wow, I mentioned my inturpertation of a post and learn LordEntrails is crazy rich and I need to chat with Andraax about my retirement account t :)
But I do agree that an Evergreen make little business sense, I got the lifetime license offered by LotRO back when it came out and have spent $0 in the last 11 years on it (I think that is how long) :)

I did the LOTRO thing also and barely played so they made bank on me ;)

[ddavison]

Good Day All :)
Wow, I mentioned my inturpertation of a post and learn LordEntrails is crazy rich and I need to chat with Andraax about my retirement account t :)
But I do agree that an Evergreen make little business sense, I got the lifetime license offered by LotRO back when it came out and have spent $0 in the last 11 years on it (I think that is how long) :)

We know who is buying the drinks if we all end up in the same bar at some point. :)

[LordEntrails]

We know who is buying the drinks if we all end up in the same bar at some point. :)
Yea, not me! Obviously when it comes to finances I've got no way to figure things out!!

(Well, I do owe a few of you around here a drink or two, so yea, maybe me...)

[epithet]

Look, all I want is to buy the Ultimate license now, and have the same license apply to Unity. I'll (presumably) be able to do that a month or two before the launch of the Kickstarter or the release of the Unity version, however that winds up getting handled, but I would rather get it done and handled now, and give you money now. Unless you guys are planning to do away with the license purchase and try to make everyone migrate to a subscription (which would not go over well with my group, I can tell you) then the only differences would be (1) you would get the money today, and (2) I would get to launch a 2nd instance from a 2nd computer, instead of the same computer, now (instead of waiting until the Unity version approaches reality.)

That seems to me like a win all around.

If you're planning on making a one-time purchase of FGU cost the same as a time-value-adjusted sum of the subscription over 100 years, or doing away with the one-time purchase option altogether, then please tell me now, so that I can start looking for other options.

[chopkins779]

Look, all I want is to buy the Ultimate license now, and have the same license apply to Unity. I'll (presumably) be able to do that a month or two before the launch of the Kickstarter or the release of the Unity version, however that winds up getting handled, but I would rather get it done and handled now, and give you money now. Unless you guys are planning to do away with the license purchase and try to make everyone migrate to a subscription (which would not go over well with my group, I can tell you) then the only differences would be (1) you would get the money today, and (2) I would get to launch a 2nd instance from a 2nd computer, instead of the same computer, now (instead of waiting until the Unity version approaches reality.)

That seems to me like a win all around.

If you're planning on making a one-time purchase of FGU cost the same as a time-value-adjusted sum of the subscription over 100 years, or doing away with the one-time purchase option altogether, then please tell me now, so that I can start looking for other options.


I think he was saying that it is not a sustainable business model. I already bought the ultimate license and like 600 bucks worth of stuff....so I couldn't even tell you how pissed I would be if I had to buy another subscription to something.

But it does bring up the question....what happens to all my stuff?

[Ckorik]

I think he was saying that it is not a sustainable business model. I already bought the ultimate license and like 600 bucks worth of stuff....so I couldn't even tell you how pissed I would be if I had to buy another subscription to something.

But it does bring up the question....what happens to all my stuff?

This is answered in several places - but whatever you end up paying for the Unity license - it will cover 'FG Classic' (what it is now) also - all the purchased stuff is supposed to be 100% compatible between the two clients - the only difference being that new features will only work in the new client (like line of sight).

I'm curious however if line of sight will also have options for vision distances - so we can make things dark for humans (for instance) and give them a torch (20 feet) but the Dwarf can see 60 feet etc. anyway that would be pretty cool!

[epithet]

This is answered in several places - but whatever you end up paying for the Unity license - it will cover 'FG Classic' (what it is now) also - all the purchased stuff is supposed to be 100% compatible between the two clients - the only difference being that new features will only work in the new client (like line of sight).

I'm curious however if line of sight will also have options for vision distances - so we can make things dark for humans (for instance) and give them a torch (20 feet) but the Dwarf can see 60 feet etc. anyway that would be pretty cool!
The question isn't "What happens to my stuff from Classic when I switch to Unity?" The question is "If Fantasy Grounds moves to a subscription-only model, am I just screwed? Because I've sunk hundreds of dollars into content for this platform that will obviously not transfer into whatever other platform I find myself going to." What chopkins779 is saying is that he, like the members of my gaming group, would probably reject the mandatory subscription model.

[epithet]

I think he was saying that it is not a sustainable business model. ...
LordEntrails was certainly saying that, but I don't think LE quite understands the FG business model. He certainly came up with some interesting math.

FantasyGrounds, unless I am mistaken, depends more on content sales for its profitability.

[Ckorik]

The question isn't "What happens to my stuff from Classic when I switch to Unity?" The question is "If Fantasy Grounds moves to a subscription-only model, am I just screwed? Because I've sunk hundreds of dollars into content for this platform that will obviously not transfer into whatever other platform I find myself going to." What chopkins779 is saying is that he, like the members of my gaming group, would probably reject the mandatory subscription model.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22089-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-engine&p=383971&viewfull=1#post383971

Answered at that link. FGU will be a separate program, not a 'upgrade' button on the existing program. You will continue to be able to use the old program for as long as you care to use it. Never paying another cent.

I can't answer if FGU will be sub only (I certainly have never seen *any* indication that it would be) but your stuff is your stuff and won't stop working.

[epithet]

... You will continue to be able to use the old program for as long as you care to use it. Never paying another cent...
Except for the fact that new content will probably not support it, so realistically you'd need to find a new home.

[gaara6666]

Well importantly folks let's not build castles in the sky or dungeons in the ground until someone says differently. John and Doug stated the plans is for it to run similar to how FG classic was monetized and I don't think for sake of subscription money they are going to reinvent the wheel. So as for "speculation" and "future foretelling" let's go by what the developers have said and not inferred information.

[Ckorik]

Except for the fact that new content will probably not support it, so realistically you'd need to find a new home.

So based on a guess that no one has ever said about price, and a guess that no one has ever said about content, you are looking for a new home due to a product that hasn't even had an alpha release yet and will be at least a year out (when the alpha happens)? I'm not Miss Cleo - I can't tell you the future - but from experience I can tell you, unless its for your kids or your retirement - it's really not worth worrying that far out :)

[lostsanityreturned]

FGU won't be going to subscription only or atleast they have no plans on making it subscription only. I can say this with confidence as they are talking about the discount linked to upgrading from FG3 to FGU. Something that isn't relevant for subscription services.

All content purchased upgrades automatically and stays valid so that isn't really relevant.

They have no real reason to offer an evergreen option and given the price points / discounts they have suggested so far. If you buy today and get 12 months of play out of it before having to pay an additional $30 for the next 5-7 years of play it is still good value.

[damned]

Except for the fact that new content will probably not support it, so realistically you'd need to find a new home.

Not everyone plays only the newest system.
Plenty of people play 4E, 3.5E, 2E, 1E not to mention other game systems.
So realistically this statement applies to some people not all people.


LordEntrails was certainly saying that, but I don't think LE quite understands the FG business model. He certainly came up with some interesting math.

FantasyGrounds, unless I am mistaken, depends more on content sales for its profitability.

Apart from SW not releasing figures on their sales they make 100% less transaction costs on Licenses and a number well under 50% on licensed products so that is not clear cut either.
If content was significantly more valuable than licenses Id have thought a free GM license would have been seen by now...

[donpaulo]

I think the issue boils down to the contentious black boxes of customer expectations as well as business costs/revenue streams.

In an ideal world both sides of the equation are met sufficiently so that everyone benefits. I would qualify this result in the "hope" category.

Sadly many consumers have been burned in the past by a number of businesses whose initial intentions were swamped by the cost of implementation & maintenance. Or by greed which I think we all know is not the case here. This one is a worst case scenario.

While I'm not saying this is applicable when it comes to FG, there is a certain lack of transparency going on here that is most certainly muddying the waters.

This situation is thus leaving some in the community to worry about their gaming platform over the next few quarters and even years.

This is creating an uneasy feeling. I think its rather telling that this thread is now on to 115 pages don't you ? Its like the doctors office calls you to tell you to come in and talk about the tests/report you had last week. Mixed emotions certainly, yes ?

Since pointing fingers does little but create opportunities for conflict lets agree that, all of us here want FG/FGU to succeed.

We RPG geeks need a place to gather and its a better place when the quality trumps quantity imho. FG has put out a quality product and we are all the better for it again imho.

For FGU to be successful they have to cover their costs and expect a "reasonable" rate of return.

The issue going forward is going to be the definition of "reasonable".

Yes further funding is going to be necessary. There is no doubt about that. The question that remains unanswered is by how much ?

Because this issue remains unclarified (for a variety of very valid reasons) people just assume the worst. This is what humans do. They either carry on as before assuming all will be well, or they start preparing for the worst. Both options have merit in my view.

The sooner the "executive" decision makers at SmiteWorks/FG make a decision on this the better. Leaving this unanswered is at best, an unwise decision. I rather not discuss what comes on the worse side of the ledger...

Further Waiting only exacerbates things.

I hope we all know that this is NOT an issue of the devs not doing their best. Yet sometimes this kind of issue conflates the two sides seeking consensus. The devs rock and I know I speak for just about everyone when I say we really appreciate the work you do.

So I think its fair to say that we ALL want FG to kick butt. We want to support those who bring it to us and create material for it. We want more and we want it now ! :)

My humble request is for the FDM (you know who you are) to make a decision and go public with it. The sooner we know the answer, the better we all are.

fyi FDM means "final decision maker"

Thanks for your time

[epithet]

Well importantly folks let's not build castles in the sky or dungeons in the ground until someone says differently. John and Doug stated the plans is for it to run similar to how FG classic was monetized and I don't think for sake of subscription money they are going to reinvent the wheel. So as for "speculation" and "future foretelling" let's go by what the developers have said and not inferred information.
If I gave you the impression I was running around with my hair on fire, let me assure you that I'm not. I know what Doug has said about FGU, which is why I'm saying that I'll be buying a license sooner or later, so let's just get it out of the way and let me enjoy ultimate FGC for the months we're waiting for FGU. Me and PayPal are ready to go.

[epithet]

...
The sooner the "executive" decision makers at SmiteWorks/FG make a decision on this the better. Leaving this unanswered is at best, an unwise decision. I rather not discuss what comes on the worse side of the ledger...

Further Waiting only exacerbates things.

...
There's no doubt that waiting for info on how long we'll be waiting is a frustrating thing. The backlash from that frustration is, however, a pale shadow of the angst that would result from setting official release dates and then pushing the product back, potentially more than once. I think that couching the info in terms of "we hope to see" and "we definitely want to have" while declining to set a hard date for FGU is the better approach. We know they're busting their butts to get something ready for the end of the year, which isn't that far away, but we also know that there's only a very few people on the project, and unforeseen issue will inevitably arise. Right now the industry headlines are all about how Roll20 screwed the pooch on PR issues. The last thing we want is for those headlines to change to focus on FGU's missed release date.

In an ideal world, SmiteWorks would have FGU in a solid beta state before we ever found out about it, and score a major PR victory. That's also the world in which my cat cleans its own litter box, and takes the trash can down to the road on trash day.

[donpaulo]

There's no doubt that waiting for info on how long we'll be waiting is a frustrating thing. The backlash from that frustration is, however, a pale shadow of the angst that would result from setting official release dates and then pushing the product back, potentially more than once. I think that couching the info in terms of "we hope to see" and "we definitely want to have" while declining to set a hard date for FGU is the better approach. We know they're busting their butts to get something ready for the end of the year, which isn't that far away, but we also know that there's only a very few people on the project, and unforeseen issue will inevitably arise. Right now the industry headlines are all about how Roll20 screwed the pooch on PR issues. The last thing we want is for those headlines to change to focus on FGU's missed release date.

In an ideal world, SmiteWorks would have FGU in a solid beta state before we ever found out about it, and score a major PR victory. That's also the world in which my cat cleans its own litter box, and takes the trash can down to the road on trash day.

Agreed, I would further clarify my post by saying that I only care about the cost of purchase not hurrying the deadline. As a 2011 license holder I am going to be on the hook for the full freight price.

Is that price 100 bucks ? 300 ? 500 ? 1000 ? 10000 ? Its an opaque box. I should know about that as I live in Japan which as a society is operated on this basis. I've also owned and operated a number of businesses myself and had to implement price increases, offer new products and at the same time balance costs, pay my taxes etc.

I don't even need an exact price. But ballparking it would be nice. It allows me to plan if I am going to kickstart another FG related module, VTT terrain project, throw money into KIVA or save it.

I have the faith, but my wife does not and she gets the bill too.

Although perhaps some of us are not concerned with the price of the entry ticket ?

I really don't care about an alpha or a beta as I enjoy FG as it is. More FG is a good thing and FGU means more stuff.

At least those of us who are prudent and want the best possible product think this way yes ?

[damned]

As a 2011 license holder your price is very likely to be around $150.
There is unlikely to be any discount for licenses that are older than 3years.
This is my opinion based on all the little bits spoken over time.

[shadzar]

Except for the fact that new content will probably not support it, so realistically you'd need to find a new home.

This is up to say DMsGuild if they want to support both FG3 and FGU and up to the developers of adventures which they want their products converted into. Thus the horrid length of time FGU i taking. MAking sure all the old stuff works with it because many people wont change. they can do without "dynamic lighting", "rebuying the same program", etc.

many will probably have to stick with FG3 models for a while even if FG3 and FGU run parallel for a time prior to FG3 being disabled, because there will be nobody at the beginning of FGU release able to code the new way for the new features in large enough supply to handle EVERY adventure writer out there.


it will likely be a D&D 5e only club in the beginning for FGU, while everything else is still coded for FG3.


*FG3 means FG Classic, the current version, but trying to not use FGC since that also means Fantasy Grounds Church College. ;)

[epithet]

...
*FG3 means FG Classic, the current version, but trying to not use FGC since that also means Fantasy Grounds Church College. ;)
Obviously, to clear up confusion, it should be called Fantasy Grounds University, instead.

Yes, I do think I'm hilarious.

[Ampersandrew]

I think we can cope with more than one definition for a TLA.

[shadzar]

Obviously, to clear up confusion, it should be called Fantasy Grounds University, instead.

Yes, I do think I'm hilarious.

[insert image of Picard facepalm]

[Dayhawk]

So I bought a full package ~350 dollars going all in on Fantasy Grounds. Having purchased the program and mods through steam, I had initially thought this program was already a unity program. That was after watching some of the youtube videos. Afterwards I was bummed to learn that it wasn't yet but decided to not try and get a refund. I feel stupid for having purchased the ultimate version as I have hardly used the program and if the Unity version requires me to buy it all over again and also pay a subscription.....

So what is the reality? Did I just waste a ton of money?

[epithet]

...
So what is the reality? Did I just waste a ton of money?
No, you did not.

The plan seems to be (speculation) to launch a Kickstarter campaign to fund the final push for the release of the Unity version, and it seems that (again, speculation) the target time frame is to get that Kickstarter launched before the end of the year. At that point (I'm still speculating, but based on comments by the people in charge of things) you will get credit towards the Unity version based on how recently you bought the Classic version. In your case, having bought it within 3 months of the Kickstarter campaign (remember... speculation) you would get credit equal to all or almost all of what you spent on the Ultimate license.

In addition (this is not speculation) all of the content you bought for the classic version will transfer to the Unity version, no action required on your part.

[Zacchaeus]

So I bought a full package ~350 dollars going all in on Fantasy Grounds. Having purchased the program and mods through steam, I had initially thought this program was already a unity program. That was after watching some of the youtube videos. Afterwards I was bummed to learn that it wasn't yet but decided to not try and get a refund. I feel stupid for having purchased the ultimate version as I have hardly used the program and if the Unity version requires me to buy it all over again and also pay a subscription.....

So what is the reality? Did I just waste a ton of money?

Hi and welcome to the forums.

Unity, as far as we know, will not be subscription based and you will not have to buy anything all over again. All of your current content will work in Unity. There may be a small upgrade charge for the license but again we have no details of how much that will be and will probably be based on the length of time you've owned a license. Those who have bought more recently will have a much smaller charge. Despite the speculation in the previous posts there have been no hard pricing points announced.

[chopkins779]

Good lord, I spent about $880 on FG so far. I'd go for an upgrade if I kept all my stuff. I may even pay full price for a license. But I don't like the subscription model. The way I see it is the subscription is for people not willing to commit. It's a test run. You don't dump nearly $1000 in to a program and run a subscription based only to ditch it a month or three in.

[epithet]

Also, it should be noted: having bought the Ultimate license and a bunch of content, you can now host a game for your group and use that content without any of them needing to buy anything at all. You can do that today, without needing to wait for new versions.

Fantasy Grounds is already a fully realized and functional virtual tabletop, with many features and quite a bit of automation that you will probably become very dependent upon almost immediately. The Unity version will just do the same stuff, but faster, and with some nifty extra features thrown in.

[chopkins779]

Though to be fair I'm not sure how many have chosen the subscription model and run it past the value of the ultimate license. Philanthropists maybe?

[chopkins779]

Also, it should be noted: having bought the Ultimate license and a bunch of content, you can now host a game for your group and use that content without any of them needing to buy anything at all. You can do that today, without needing to wait for new versions.

Fantasy Grounds is already a fully realized and functional virtual tabletop, with many features and quite a bit of automation that you will probably become very dependent upon almost immediately. The Unity version will just do the same stuff, but faster, and with some nifty extra features thrown in.

That is the hope.

[chopkins779]

Are the modules stored locally but are encrypted? I've always wondered if, forbid, fantasy grounds servers went **poof** if we'd still have access to our materials.

[Trenloe]

Are the modules stored locally but are encrypted? I've always wondered if, forbid, fantasy grounds servers went **poof** if we'd still have access to our materials.
Discussed here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?45753-What-happens-if-FG-goes-away

There’s a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation around this (you’ll see what I mean if you read the whole of that thread). Post #2 presents the correct and accurate information.

[Trenloe]

So I bought a full package ~350 dollars going all in on Fantasy Grounds. Having purchased the program and mods through steam, I had initially thought this program was already a unity program. That was after watching some of the youtube videos. Afterwards I was bummed to learn that it wasn't yet but decided to not try and get a refund. I feel stupid for having purchased the ultimate version as I have hardly used the program and if the Unity version requires me to buy it all over again and also pay a subscription.....

So what is the reality? Did I just waste a ton of money?
Welcome to the forums.

The recommendation has always been buy FG for what it is now, not what it might be in the future. Unless you only watched the 2 or 3 videos showing possible future Unity functionality, from the many videos of FG in use, you’ll have got a pretty good view of what FG can do now. FG is not a brand new VTT, it’s been around for nearly 15 years. It has lots of functionality and loads of DLC to use right now. You didn’t waste your money, unless all you want is a fancy mapping tool, not a fully functional VTT.

[randyd9090]

ok.......its the end of summer and I was hoping to see the alpha version of the unity build ready to test out.....as earlier talked about in this forum.....how about it ..are we close to seeing the alpha...im ready to put it to the test.

[LordEntrails]

ok.......its the end of summer and I was hoping to see the alpha version of the unity build ready to test out.....as earlier talked about in this forum.....how about it ..are we close to seeing the alpha...im ready to put it to the test.
No firm date has ever been given. Speculation and hope has been given. We still don't know when.

[lostsanityreturned]

So I bought a full package ~350 dollars going all in on Fantasy Grounds. Having purchased the program and mods through steam, I had initially thought this program was already a unity program. That was after watching some of the youtube videos. Afterwards I was bummed to learn that it wasn't yet but decided to not try and get a refund. I feel stupid for having purchased the ultimate version as I have hardly used the program and if the Unity version requires me to buy it all over again and also pay a subscription.....

So what is the reality? Did I just waste a ton of money?

Unity likely won't require you to buy it all again, only a partial amount of the ultimate license cost to upgrade.

There is no evidence that a subscription only model will be adopted and convincing evidence to suggest they won't go down that route. I wish I knew where this was coming from.

Also, while the program will have a bunch of awesome changes for FGU, if you don't like it now it isn't changing so drastically that you will love it with unity.
The core interface and method of interacting with the program are remaining the same for the foreseeable future.

I would really recommend giving the program a solid shot as is, even though I deride the mapping tools they are still functional enough, and there is a lot of awesome in the program.

[damned]

Whilst the optimist casually threw out an "end of this year target" Im fairly sure the pragmatist did not confirm that....
It may be a whole longer yet... :)

[Ampersandrew]

Whilst the optimist casually threw out an "end of this year target" Im fairly sure the pragmatist did not confirm that....
It may be a whole longer yet... :)

Which is vexing.

vex
vɛks
verb
gerund or present participle: vexing
make (someone) feel annoyed, frustrated, or worried, especially with trivial matters.

:)

[damned]

The devs want Unity to ready more than we do.
They are doing everything they can to get it ready for release.

vexing is probably a fitting term.

[ddavison]

There won't be a subscription only model for FGU and pricing should be fairly close to the current model. As previously mentioned, there will be some form of discount based on the age of any current Fantasy Grounds Classic license (not subscriptions) with more recent license purchases getting a greater discount to compensate for having recently acquired it.

I threw out the projection for an end of Summer Alpha release but we are not there yet. John, Carl and now Ryan are busy working on it but they still have more work to go. They are still working on the core engine at this point and we have not yet begun working on DLC updates. Ryan is working on the updater, so that has freed John up from having to build that component. Meanwhile, James and I will continue to work on new releases for DLC and Dave is holding down the fort for customer service.

For a purely unscientific way to estimate, we have a Kill Sheet with 26 pages of issues and to-do items. We have completed 20 of those pages -- leaving 6 (5 1/2 actually) more pages. Many of the items on the 6-pages are mostly done but not ready to fully check off the list yet.

[Zacchaeus]

Just so everyone knows, and relating to damned's earlier comments, the post above is from the optimist :)

[Gwydion]

Just so everyone knows, and relating to damned's earlier comments, the post above is from the optimist :)

Speaking from experience, CEO's are notoriously optimistic...... :D

[shadzar]

Speaking from experience, CEO's are notoriously optimistic...... :D

Woe be unto the developers :p

[Gix]

5.5 “pages”

You guys print out your punch list? Heh heh.
What font size? “4pt” but hey, only 5.5 pages left :)

It also depends on how big each issue is: “Complete UI” might be one item :D

Also...please for the love of Pete tell me you’re killing the round right click menu!

What I want to know is how many story points are left, and what’s your velocity...and are you writing unit tests?

[ddavison]

The pointy-haired CEO suitable response to reduce the punch list is to modify line spacing height and use an 8-point font. In just two steps, we can cut the size of our punch list in half. :)

[Gix]

The pointy-haired CEO suitable response to reduce the punch list is to modify line spacing height and use an 8-point font. In just two steps, we can cut the size of our punch list in half. :)

Also, the other 20 pages are double spaced 16pt font

[Bidmaron]

Please don’t kill right click round menus. It is part of the interface that doesn’t look like computer program and helps maintain the medieval look and feel to suspend belief vital to fantasy role play

[Gix]

Please don’t kill right click round menus. It is part of the interface that doesn’t look like computer program and helps maintain the medieval look and feel to suspend belief vital to fantasy role play

You, sir, are dead to me.

[Trenloe]

Also...please for the love of Pete tell me you’re killing the round right click menu!
You could write an extension to make it square, or hexagonal, or triangular. No need to be round-ist!

[Gix]

You could write an extension to make it square, or hexagonal, or triangular. No need to be round-ist!

Sure, change the extensions to use HTML/CSS or even JSON and I'll get right on it. XML, not so much.

Simply add one item to the punch list: "Change extensions to use HTML/CSS, JSON and JavaScript". Easy!

[shadzar]

Please don’t kill right click round menus. It is part of the interface that

...looks like the pathetic Neverwinter Nights radial menu system, from Bioware.



Fixed it for you. ;)

[lostsanityreturned]

I am okay with radial menus being a thing personally. In an ideal world we would have multiple options.
But remembering gestures is pretty easy and it is remarkably comfortable when I am controlling the interface via graphics tablet. :P

I see radial menus as being ideal for the eventual touch screen support in unity too :P

This said, more hotkeys would be the hill I would be dying on, things so I can skip using mouse reliant menus entirely :P

[LordEntrails]

This said, more hotkeys would be the hill I would be dying on, things so I can skip using mouse reliant menus entirely :P
You use all 96 of the current hot keys? Wow, never thought anyone would get there :)

[Moon Wizard]

I think he’s thinking ahead to touch friendly interfaces. (ie no keyboard required). Have been considering adding up/down buttons as the way to swap hot key bars, instead of keyboard modifiers.

Cheers,
JPG

[Mortar]

I think he’s thinking ahead to touch friendly interfaces. (ie no keyboard required). Have been considering adding up/down buttons as the way to swap hot key bars, instead of keyboard modifiers.

Cheers,
JPG

Yes please!

[Valyar]

I think he’s thinking ahead to touch friendly interfaces. (ie no keyboard required). Have been considering adding up/down buttons as the way to swap hot key bars, instead of keyboard modifiers.

Cheers,
JPG
I would suggest to keep the existing system and give the new option via some trigger in the Options. I like the current way of reverting to the standard bar automatically.

[Three of Swords]

I would suggest to keep the existing system and give the new option via some trigger in the Options. I like the current way of reverting to the standard bar automatically.

This. Please.

[shadzar]

I would suggest to keep the existing system and give the new option via some trigger in the Options. I like the current way of reverting to the standard bar automatically.

of keep the current system for routine for existing users, and add for mobile users a "swipe" to switch from one hotbar set to another. mobile people like swiping right?

[lostsanityreturned]

You use all 96 of the current hot keys? Wow, never thought anyone would get there :)

I am talking about hotkeys for masking, grids, token control, the various modifiers, visibility, being able to set hotkeys for effects, character sheet control and more.

Something like what I can do in the adobe suite of programs would be my heaven :P

Quick to access paired with mappable context sensitive mappable hotkeys are favourite things in any program :P

[Gix]

I am talking about hotkeys for masking, grids, token control, the various modifiers, visibility, being able to set hotkeys for effects, character sheet control and more.

Something like what I can do in the adobe suite of programs would be my heaven :P

Quick to access paired with mappable context sensitive mappable hotkeys are favourite things in any program :P

This would be a much better use for hotkeys rather than having 96 hotkeys which get wiped out every time there is an update (thereby making adding 3-4 the most I would ever be willing to do anyway.

[Trenloe]

...having 96 hotkeys which get wiped out every time there is an update ...
They shouldn't get wiped every time there's an update. They're stored in your campaign files for the GM or cache for players - both of which don't get touched as part of an update. So the settings are campaign specific - which might be causing the confusion that they get wiped? You can copy the hotkey XML file from one campaign/cache to another if you have a set of preferred hotkeys you want to reuse.

[Xemit]

Love the radial right mouse button menus. Functionally equivalent to a regular linear menu, but easier to use and look tremendously better!

[The High Druid]

Touchscreens & Hotkeys:
- If the user is only using the first 12, tap & done.
- If they are using additional banks, the first tap pops up the options for that button (2-4 buttons appear as a stack above it) and second tap selects. (and if you wanted touch screens could have more than 4 banks that way as they wouldn't need the modifier keys)

Personally, would much prefer this to scrolling or swiping the entire bar.

Edit: And keep the radial menus, please.

[celestian]

Love the radial right mouse button menus. Functionally equivalent to a regular linear menu, but easier to use and look tremendously better!

I'd prefer a tiered more flexible system myself tho right now the radial works. It's just a little clunky. Having a tiered where you can easily go back to top and back down would make my experience more enjoyable.

That said I don't expect any of this to change until well after FGU is out.

[Valyar]

There should be also shortcuts for module authors within FG - create entry in the respective library, lock/unlock page, close window and etc. Will dramatically improve the data entry process. Now I am getting crazy when doing content heavy modules.

[shadzar]

There should be also shortcuts for module authors within FG - create entry in the respective library, lock/unlock page, close window and etc. Will dramatically improve the data entry process. Now I am getting crazy when doing content heavy modules.


i think FG jsut needs another program for module creation

on that can do all the things without having touse the gaming interface, but has a palette of items for creating a table, or bolding text, or adding an image linebreak, etc... Maybe not fully WYSIWYG, but the best thing so far is the former NPC Engineer, though i dont recall what its name was changed to when more tools were added... will ahve to track it down wherever Maasq hid it to find out what all it does now. but if it is a part of the FGU package, then it would be great.

[celestian]

i think FG jsut needs another program for module creation

on that can do all the things without having touse the gaming interface, but has a palette of items for creating a table, or bolding text, or adding an image linebreak, etc... Maybe not fully WYSIWYG, but the best thing so far is the former NPC Engineer, though i dont recall what its name was changed to when more tools were added... will ahve to track it down wherever Maasq hid it to find out what all it does now. but if it is a part of the FGU package, then it would be great.

There is no reason it couldn't be part of FGU proper down the road. With a little updating and tweaks things could be wysiwyg. It certainly will require some changes to current methods but it can be done. With Author is does everything wysiwyg. If we could get inline images add the "theme" background/imaging options in story entries it'd be a lot closer. Adding a chapter/subchapter system would be pretty easy to do.

[Maasq]

but the best thing so far is the former NPC Engineer, though i dont recall what its name was changed to when more tools were added... will ahve to track it down wherever Maasq hid it to find out what all it does now. but if it is a part of the FGU package, then it would be great.

Hiya!
www.masq.net for the application (Engineer Suite). At the moment it can do images, tokens, NPCs, spells. Equipment is in the embryonic stage :)

And while I'd love to sell it for 5 million dollars(!), it isn't written in Unity so it would be useless to Smiteworks. I had a look at Unity and the thought of constructing the GUI for what I do.... I shuddered, uninstalled and had a swift drink. Now if one of the Smiteworks guys tell me that GUI work is OK, that there is a library I can use - then I might look at it again. The 5 million dollars is going to be a stumbling block, though, unless LordEntrails ponies up for that evergreen license :)

Maasq

[gaara6666]

One thought I was thinking of. A special FG fridays when FGU is released just to go over configuration changes of FGC to FGU including the new way networking will be handled and changes with that.

[Grendal1971]

While I understand the reasoning behind the "length of time owned discounting", I can't help but feel it doesn't rightly reward those of us who took an earlier roll/risk in supporting this software and being loyal to it lo these many years... Can't we get something? Maybe a small percentage discount for being LEGENDARY users...

[Guoccamole]

While I understand the reasoning behind the "length of time owned discounting", I can't help but feel it doesn't rightly reward those of us who took an earlier roll/risk in supporting this software and being loyal to it lo these many years... Can't we get something? Maybe a small percentage discount for being LEGENDARY users...

There’s no perfect pricing model. The product should be its own reward, but it’s confusing because the community is so strong, creative, and generous. At the end of the day, SmiteWorks is a business, and to provide services and products, they need to stay in business.

I think the KickStarter approach is interesting since Doug seems to be flexible on pricing. So (if rumors are true about KS kickoff), the KickStarter will provide each legacy ... new user to back at the level with which they feel comfortable. With luck, everyone will feel generous, and SmiteWorks will get ample funds to do some crazy stuff to make FGUnity that much better. I believe the KS model will provide a (low) base price, but with plenty of PWYW (Pay What You Want) headroom to justify boosting FGUnity with extra features.

I don’t envy the designer of that KS but... I do hope it goes crazy well, and we all benefit with a fantastic kickoff FGUnity!-)

[JohnQPublic]

Speaking only for myself I'm happy to pay full price for FG:U as long as everything I've already purchased works with it. And my view of 'full price' is basically another ultimate license, about $150-$200. Not a problem at all for me. That $150 will give me about 4 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for who-knows-how-many years. More than worth it to me.

[gaara6666]

Agree with John here. My percentage of cost per hour on fg2 since 2008... oh man i wanna say im paying around .03 cents an hour now

[seycyrus]

While I understand the reasoning behind the "length of time owned discounting", I can't help but feel it doesn't rightly reward those of us who took an earlier roll/risk in supporting this software and being loyal to it lo these many years... Can't we get something? Maybe a small percentage discount for being LEGENDARY users...

Yeah, that's right!

In fact they should be paying ME for using their software. Playtesting and all that ...

You know what, all you guys owe me money for me dropping by and laying down my prose.

[Temmpest]

I wish Chevy would give me a discount for being a loyal customer. The longer you’ve owned the full price software the more value you’ve gotten from it. This company needs to thrive. Just be ready to fork over whatever they charge. And be grateful it exists.

[ddavison]

Hello chrisinfinger, I think that Guoccamole hit it on the head. We plan to put out what we think makes the most sense as a guideline to backers and have each backer self-select the one that fits them best. It's going to be a pretty big gamble to do so, but I think we are in good enough shape to risk it. Most Kickstarters need the money in order to hire people to do the work, but we've been subsidizing the development of FGU off the income from FG Classic. We've already hired the people we need -- although I could see us adding one or two more to help support the additional work of managing FGU and FGClassic at the same time.

The KS total will basically be a measuring stick to tell us whether or not we've done a good job up to this point. It's not the end of the work, but just the beginning. It will provide for some profit taking and bonuses but it is mostly a spike of income. How strong sales of FGU continue to be after the Kickstarter will allow us to determine what size the business needs to be. While we all hope the KS will go very well, we don't want to be like other businesses that see a boost and then grow too big, too fast and then fail a year down the road when the residual income doesn't cover increased expenses.

[dragonheels]

we don't want to be like other businesses that see a boost and then grow too big, too fast and then fail a year down the road when the residual income doesn't cover increased expenses.
Those are very wise words. I totally agree

[shadzar]

While I understand the reasoning behind the "length of time owned discounting", I can't help but feel it doesn't rightly reward those of us who took an earlier roll/risk in supporting this software and being loyal to it lo these many years...

Think about those users that FGU wont even work for anymore and don't find out until AFTER they have paid and download the kickstarter that their laptop they were using isn't powerful enough for the Unity engine. and then FG3 get cancelled and they have all that "legendary" content they can't even use anymore.

Just like when DDi ended, everyone lost all that content, but blindly jump on DNDBeyond and shell out the same money again for the same thing to eventually happen.

Because while FGU might be backwards compatible, it doesn't mean it will work on every device currently running it FG3 and those people will be left out to dry sooner rather than later when the FG3 line can no longer be supported. Those people that can't afford to buy a new computer just to use FGU will be driven to roll20 and use their "books" from FG3 on it.

[ddavison]

It will be a while before FG3 goes away. That said, it depends upon DirectX9.0c and support for that is becoming weaker and weaker as newer graphic drivers come out. We also don't expect FGU to require a high-end machine once it is optimized. FGU should work on more devices overall because of improved cross-platform compatibility and better support for graphics cards released in the last decade.

[damned]

Think about those users that FGU wont even work for anymore and don't find out until AFTER they have paid and download the kickstarter that their laptop they were using isn't powerful enough for the Unity engine. and then FG3 get cancelled and they have all that "legendary" content they can't even use anymore.

Why do you persist on spreading FUD and misinformation?
FGs refund policy is very clearly listed in the store.
30-day Money Back Guarantee on all Purchases
It is inevitable that some computers wont run FGU.
Im sure they can request an receive a refund.

As to FG3 going away... wheres it going to go? Its installed locally on your computer.
Whats going t stop it working on your computer?
If your computer is too old to run FGU its probably also running an unsupported operating system so its not getting updates that might break it.

[Poisontoast]

Why do you persist on spreading FUD and misinformation?

Because people hate change and will kick and scream the whole time. I fully expect to pay for the NEW software, 150~200 or whatever, and I will.

What I don't expect to do is repurchase all my content (which I am sure FG is not going to make me do). I also hate subscription models personally and would love to buy the software. Now if I can also choose to pay a monthly fee for added content or features that use your server that would be ok.

I would love a collaborative map tools where players can map out the game while I have a hidden map underneath. These tools would be awesome for games like Kingmaker or Tomb of Annihilation and I would pay a monthly fee for them.

I would also pay a monthly fee so I can pass the DM Screen so-to-speak to one of my players that wants to try and DM.

[zen2000]

Greetings! Glad to see the FGU thread is still alive. Is a new Kickstarter possible to get more devs on board to launch FGU?
It seems like supporting the old FG software and building the new FGU software at the same time is a big cause of the current slowdown in development. That and porting the huge amount of content so purchased adventure modules work in the new system. Any talk about a possible Kickstarter to get more help and push this forward?

p.s. This thread is 122 deep. Very sorry if this has already been asked!

[Zacchaeus]

Greetings! Glad to see the FGU thread is still alive. Is a new Kickstarter possible to get more devs on board to launch FGU?
It seems like supporting the old FG software and building the new FGU software at the same time is a big cause of the current slowdown in development. That and porting the huge amount of content so purchased adventure modules work in the new system. Any talk about a possible Kickstarter to get more help and push this forward?

p.s. This thread is 122 deep. Very sorry if this has already been asked!

There may well be a Kickstarter nearer when the software is in Alpha. Any work being done on the current version is work which is being done to support Unity. Content will not need ported over since the Unity project is being constructed so DLC will run on it.

[zen2000]

Thanks for the update, Zacchaeus.

[st4lk3r87]

I'm starting to think it would be very useful for the community if you guys had a dev blog of what's going on with the fg and FGU development.

Everytime i have a discussion with other digital rpg player it's very hard to keep saying: "When FGU will come out most of the memory or performance problem will be gone" et simila, especially when I'm repeating this from years.

I'm OK with the "waiting" aspect of it. Being myself a dev I know what are the obstacle. What I'm not OK with is the possibility to see the new project breathing. Please don't send me the link to the 4 preview with sight system or map making. I saw those videos 1000 times and they are not telling me that much.

I know you might be busy and you can't dedicate a person to this idea ( the dev blog ). I wonder if you thought about it. Haven't you?

Hope you don't take it as a rant. :) basically what I'm saying is: more news and status updates ( even if minor ) would be very good.

[zen2000]

Agreed. Monthly or quarterly updates on the project status would be really helpful. Until I found this thread alive I thought FGU might be a dead project because it's been so long.

[Bidmaron]

if you thought it was dead, you simply aren't paying attention. Just look at recent posts. FGU gets discussed many MANY times, in multiple threads, and there are almost never any new points. This thread is 6 years old with 1218 posts. If they were evenly spaced (which of course they aren't), that is an average of a post every 2 days, and that doesn't count the half dozen other threads where we repeat things.

[st4lk3r87]

if you thought it was dead, you simply aren't paying attention. Just look at recent posts. FGU gets discussed many MANY times, in multiple threads, and there are almost never any new points. This thread is 6 years old with 1218 posts. If they were evenly spaced (which of course they aren't), that is an average of a post every 2 days, and that doesn't count the half dozen other threads where we repeat things.

... 1218 created mainly from the community full of guess and correction. This is in no way close to my idea of dev blog. It's better than nothing but that's not what I think is optimal ( not even close )

And yes 6 years and the main points I've seen are: 4 videos showcasing partial features, acquisition of tabletop connect, a need for networking specialist, details on costs and backward compatibility support. If you are a new user you have to scroll over 1218 posts to get a feeling of what's going on. Not the best experience.

[StoryWeaver]

Everytime i have a discussion with other digital rpg player it's very hard to keep saying: "When FGU will come out most of the memory or performance problem will be gone" et simila, especially when I'm repeating this from years.

Version 3.3.7 of our current version of FG solves most of the memory issues that the players have had!
It is currently available under Settings > Mode : Test.
You can freely switch between the Live version and the Test version.
It will be pushed out as the new live version on the 18th of December this year. :) https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46850-Upcoming-v3-3-7-release-and-community-extensions

The difference in memory management is as follows. Client 3.3.6 and earlier would load every image in all the modules/books loaded into memory. This would cause memory use on the players side to be 2-2.5x that of the server/host/gm's computer.
And as we know, because FG is a 32-bit application it starts breaking around 2.5-3 GB of ram used.

With 3.3.7 however, the loading of images into memory will only be when as needed/shown on the players client. After testing this is a three games I run, with a number of players, I've found the memory usage to be pretty much the same with this new version for both the GM's and Players client! This is a huge leap forward and has solved the memory issues for me and my groups! As before players could only load a couple of books or so before breaching they cap, they can now load a high number of them without suffering memory issues.
Also keeping the memory/resource lower due to this has seemed to make the client run smoother for all involved. This is a less scientific observation without the backing of hard data, so might be in the eye of the beholder until further testing has been done lol.

But in short, we have an amazing patch coming out in two weeks to the Live version! :D

[st4lk3r87]

Version 3.3.7 of our current version of FG solves most of the memory issues that the players have had!
It is currently available under Settings > Mode : Test.
You can freely switch between the Live version and the Test version.
It will be pushed out as the new live version on the 18th of December this year. :) https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?46850-Upcoming-v3-3-7-release-and-community-extensions

The difference in memory management is as follows. Client 3.3.6 and earlier would load every image in all the modules/books loaded into memory. This would cause memory use on the players side to be 2-2.5x that of the server/host/gm's computer.
And as we know, because FG is a 32-bit application it starts breaking around 2.5-3 GB of ram used.

With 3.3.7 however, the loading of images into memory will only be when as needed/shown on the players client. After testing this is a three games I run, with a number of players, I've found the memory usage to be pretty much the same with this new version for both the GM's and Players client! This is a huge leap forward and has solved the memory issues for me and my groups! As before players could only load a couple of books or so before breaching they cap, they can now load a high number of them without suffering memory issues.
Also keeping the memory/resource lower due to this has seemed to make the client run smoother for all involved. This is a less scientific observation without the backing of hard data, so might be in the eye of the beholder until further testing has been done lol.

But in short, we have an amazing patch coming out in two weeks to the Live version! :D

That's very nice to know. I totally missed it. Thank you for the info :)

[damned]

... 1218 created mainly from the community full of guess and correction. This is in no way close to my idea of dev blog. It's better than nothing but that's not what I think is optimal ( not even close )

And yes 6 years and the main points I've seen are: 4 videos showcasing partial features, acquisition of tabletop connect, a need for networking specialist, details on costs and backward compatibility support. If you are a new user you have to scroll over 1218 posts to get a feeling of what's going on. Not the best experience.

As you have read those posts you will have read the same info that the rest of us have.
Its a small business and at least half of the core team would rather not talk about Unity at all because from their perspective it adds nothing to the user experience and only adds pressure and expectation.
The vast bulk of the responses/answers that point to Unity as the answer are not from the company - they are from us the community.
Whilst its nice for us all to have opinions on stuff - particularly on Unity - I doubt we will change the mind of the devs and I doubt we will see a blog.

[st4lk3r87]

The vast bulk of the responses/answers that point to Unity as the answer are not from the company - they are from us the community.
Yes. That's what I'm worried about. As a user i'm starting to be very skeptical. I think we'll not see a FGU in 2019 too. I keep paying the monthly fee ( even if I won an ultimate license ) cause I trust Smiteworks and I want to support them. But I'd like to get more info related to the development status.
And I'm not talking only about Unity updates. It could be related to anything else. In 2018 the forum is not the right way to give news and info on the product. I know there's the Friday streaming too and I appreciate that initiative but I still think a blog will let the user knows how things are going.
As you said it's a small business. Probably, and sadly, I just have to deal with it.

[damned]

The vast bulk of the responses/answers that point to Unity as the answer are not from the company - they are from us the community.


Yes. That's what I'm worried about. As a user i'm starting to be very skeptical. I think we'll not see a FGU in 2019 too. I keep paying the monthly fee ( even if I won an ultimate license ) cause I trust Smiteworks and I want to support them. But I'd like to get more info related to the development status.
And I'm not talking only about Unity updates. It could be related to anything else. In 2018 the forum is not the right way to give news and info on the product. I know there's the Friday streaming too and I appreciate that initiative but I still think a blog will let the user knows how things are going.
As you said it's a small business. Probably, and sadly, I just have to deal with it.

I think you are completely misunderstanding my point.
Almost all of the talk about Unity comes from the community - not from Smiteworks.
Almost all of the talk about Unity is at least one or more of hearsay, conjecture, second hand, misinformed, misleading or whatever.

SmiteWorks are not talking about Unity until they are ready to talk about it.

What exactly about Unity is so pressing?
What exactly about Unity are you expecting to cause you to change your subscription or support or usage or other of the software?
Since the Unity project began SmiteWorks have not ignore the current platform.
100s of additional products, hundreds of additional features and improvements have been added.

Some things cant be done on this platform - just like some things cant be done on other VTT platforms.

The biggest changes in the Unity platform on day 1 will probably not affect most users of the software.
Most changes to the software in version 1 will likely be plumbing changes. Stuff that most people will likely be completely unaware of.
Most of the changes will likely be boring, boring stuff - networking, memory management, graphics library stuff.
Stuff that just does its thing in the background and most people are unaware of it.

There might be some cool stuff - layers and mapping and lighting.
But the vast bulk of the application will likely look and feel and operate pretty much like the current version does.

The community obsession with Unity is rather strange in my opinion.
While not ideal - there are work arounds for the networking issues that some people face. The networking updates will likely benefit new users more than they benefit current users.
It is very easy to manage memory limitations - and 3.3.7 will likely ease this situation for the bulk of people that are effected and cant/wont manage what they load. The most affected users are Starfinder players and their DLC has also had a bunch of updates to help address this over the last month.

Fantasy Grounds is alive and well - the current platform and engine is well supported and actively developed. The next version is the next version and is just not that relevant to the vast majority of current users.

What goes on inside the SmiteWorks development team is their business and them not wanting to detail that to the rest of us is a completely valid and rational approach - irrespective of what anyone else thinks or wants.

The content of my post is my opinion only. Its not worth much. Feel free to ignore it.

[dulux-oz]

I think you are completely misunderstanding my point.
...
What goes on inside the SmiteWorks development team is their business and them not wanting to detail that to the rest of us is a completely valid and rational approach - irrespective of what anyone else thinks or wants.

The content of my post is my opinion only. Its not worth much. Feel free to ignore it.

Well said.

[Ampersandrew]

There might be some cool stuff - layers and mapping and lighting.
But the vast bulk of the application will likely look and feel and operate pretty much like the current version does.

The community obsession with Unity is rather strange in my opinion.

It really isn't. We've been shown dynamic lighting and map manipulation demos. They looked really, really good. I'm quite looking forward to those.

I'm also aware that Smite Works will talk about unity when they're ready and I'm not into badgering them about it. That just crates drama for no good purpose.

I'm using the version I have, it's hands down better than any other VTT I have direct experience of.

Roll on Unity (when it's ready)

[st4lk3r87]

...
What goes on inside the SmiteWorks development team is their business and them not wanting to detail that to the rest of us is a completely valid and rational approach - irrespective of what anyone else thinks or wants.
The content of my post is my opinion only. Its not worth much. Feel free to ignore it.

Fair enough.

[epithet]

...
What goes on inside the SmiteWorks development team is their business and them not wanting to detail that to the rest of us is a completely valid and rational approach - irrespective of what anyone else thinks or wants.
...
Their business is selling things to us, isn't it?

This attitude confuses me. SmiteWorks is developing a product, and its customers and potential customers are excited about it, and want to know more about it, and are ready throw money at it. Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly the situation a company wants to be in. Wherefore, then, this defensive attitude?

[Andraax]

SmiteWorks is developing a product, and its customers and potential customers are excited about it, and want to know more about it, and are ready throw money at it. Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly the situation a company wants to be in. Wherefore, then, this defensive attitude?

Because that product isn't ready. As they have said many times - buy Fantasy Grounds for what it provides now.

[twistedtechmike]

The only thing I want is dynamic lighting, because unmasking can be tedious on the fly with no way to preset clickable mask areas. Something of a bonus is large maps and better networking.

[Targas]

The only thing I want is dynamic lighting...
Did you know: About 2 1/2 years ago, ‚smelton‘ created a ‚dynamic lighting‘ extension for the current release of FG. Sadly, he disappeared shortly afterwards and this extension never hit the light of day:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33379-Fog-of-war-extension-demo-video

[damned]

Did you know: About 2 1/2 years ago, ‚smelton‘ created a ‚dynamic lighting‘ extension for the current release of FG. Sadly, he disappeared shortly afterwards and this extension never hit the light of day:
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?33379-Fog-of-war-extension-demo-video

Yep - that was very cool.
It was definitely an interesting fly by visit!

[damned]

Their business is selling things to us, isn't it?

This attitude confuses me. SmiteWorks is developing a product, and its customers and potential customers are excited about it, and want to know more about it, and are ready throw money at it. Unless I am mistaken, that is exactly the situation a company wants to be in. Wherefore, then, this defensive attitude?

Well they are developing many products and most of them are for sale now, and others will be ready soon. There is one that is not yet ready and they dont know how much longer it will take. Its by far the biggest single investment they have ever made and they (as a whole... barring a couple of teasers which maybe they shouldnt have done) are not yet ready to talk specifics about that particular product.

They are totally committed to getting Unity done. Im sure they are excited about our excitement for the product - but conversely they dont have a firm timelime still and so are not ready to talk about it.

The defensiveness is mine. I am not talking on SmiteWorks behalf. I am simply putting forward my views on the topic based on what I have seen and heard thru the various public channels that SmiteWorks talk on - the forums, discord, steam, twitter, newsletters, facebook... I have no insider information, my comments are my own.

[Three of Swords]

Did you know: About 2 1/2 years ago, ‚smelton‘ created a ‚dynamic lighting‘ extension for the current release of FG. Sadly, he disappeared shortly afterwards and this extension never hit the light of day:

It makes me very sad that he didn't stick around. That would have been an amazing addition to FG.

[LordEntrails]

It makes me very sad that he didn't stick around. That would have been an amazing addition to FG.
Perhaps. But perhaps also he realized the difference between a technology demonstration and actual production software.

I have demo'd many types of software for many years. Often for millions dollar deals. I have also implemented those software deals many times.
Just because I can do an amazing demo with a piece of software, doesn't mean I want to actually implement it. And it certainly doesn't mean it's ready for prime time. Technology demo's are easy, often only a tiny fraction of the effort needed to actually deploy the solution in a technology ready platform.

[Targas]

I have also implemented those software deals many times...
Congratulations. Nominated for writing this extension. :)

[Ampersandrew]

Congratulations. Nominated for writing this extension. :)

I think you missed

"doesn't mean I want to actually implement it."

[Targas]

I think you missed..
I think you missed
A) Smilie
B) adressed to LordEntrails, not you..

[LordEntrails]

Congratulations. Nominated for writing this extension. :)
Oh I don't code. I get to do all the easy stuff, you know, system architecture, process design, specification writing, project management. I don't actually do any of the real work like writing code!

[Honken]

One question that i got when i watched the FG friday video the other day is. If i as a GM, or player wanna upgrade to FGU, but my players doesn't want to do it. Will they be able to connect to my FGU server, and will i be able to connect to their FGC server when I am a player.

/H

[Valyar]

One question that i got when i watched the FG friday video the other day is. If i as a GM, or player wanna upgrade to FGU, but my players doesn't want to do it. Will they be able to connect to my FGU server, and will i be able to connect to their FGC server when I am a player.

/H

As player, the capability to connect to a host, depends on host's license:
If you are GM and run Ultimate, all players will be able to connect no matter if they run Demo, Standard or Ultimate.
If you are GM and run Standard, only Standard and Ultimate will be able to connect to you (If Demo attempts to connect to you, this is allowed, but I am not sure if Standard and Ultimate can freely connect).

[Trenloe]

One question that i got when i watched the FG friday video the other day is. If i as a GM, or player wanna upgrade to FGU, but my players doesn't want to do it. Will they be able to connect to my FGU server, and will i be able to connect to their FGC server when I am a player.
It’s been mentioned elsewhere that they will not be cross compatible - the underlying network code will have changed (a good thing) and there’ll be other under the hood changes that will mean you can’t connect FGU to FGC and vice versa. They will essentially be two separate apps, so you should be able to have both installed on your computer and use which one you need. Your FGC license will continue to work - mentioned here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?22089-Fantasy-Grounds-Unity-engine&p=384901&viewfull=1#post384901

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

I can have the FGC and FGU in same machine?

[Trenloe]

I can have the FGC and FGU in same machine?

As I said:

They will essentially be two separate apps, so you should be able to have both installed on your computer and use which one you need.
You may need to keep your FGC and FGU campaigns separate - probably have 2 different FG data locations to be sure.

[Moon Wizard]

The campaigns will be separate between FGU and FGC.

Regards,
JPG

[epithet]

The campaigns will be separate between FGU and FGC.

Regards,
JPG

WTB FGU campaign migration tool.

[Moon Wizard]

As of right now, you can migrate campaigns by simply copying the folders from the current FG version to the FGU data folder. We haven't completely finalized everything; so there may be some additional migration needed, but we're trying to avoid.

Regards,
JPG

[Mathizsias]

I really hope we get an update sometime soon folks, keep up the good work!

[Guoccamole]

Maybe at Fantasy Grounds Fridays this AM? Happy New Year show... with update(s) to FGU?

[Patou]

Okay... ordered this puppy so i'd have no issue for the future. Pray tell i'm okay...

XPS 8930 basic
Safety / Environment and Regulatory Guide (English / French Multi-language)
DW1810 drivers
Memory 16GB DDR4 Dual Channel to 2666MHz
SSD 256 GB PCIe x4 + DD 1TB 7200 rev / min
US Power Cord
Module, card, graphic, GTX, 1080.8930, EM
Integrated with Pro WAVE MaxxAudio
1x1 802.11ac WiFi and Bluetooth 4.1
XPS 8930, main frame (460W)
Intel Core i7-8700 8th generation 6 cores (up to 4.6 GHz, 12MB cache)
Processor Intel Core i7 label