How Fantasy Grounds Unity can be the top VTT even with WotC's new 3DVTT and DnDBeyond

[Neovirtus]

I am frankly a little shocked to see people putting down a basic idea that would add functionality.

It is an age old feature of these forums. There is an established group of users who make it a point to come into perfectly reasonable and good natured posts about what people would like to see the software be able to do, and tell people why they shouldn't want that or why it isn't useful. Contrast that with the owner of the company coming in and saying "thanks for the feedback", for some reason people feel the need to tell you you're wrong to want the software to be any different than it is right now.

I think it goes without saying that every suggestion would be filtered through the development process of Dev resource allocation, company priorities, etc. but people get very defensive around here for reasons I don't pretend to actually understand.

[MentalChillness]

I think it's definitely a mix of, is it worth it to devote resources to creating a mobile application and some of the 'old-heads' don't really see the point of having FG functionality from their phones. I think DnD Beyond's success and buyout by WotC speaks for itself. People have phones, they want to use it while they're gaming in person and over VTTs.

[MentalChillness]

Well at leaat he got to play, Discord often saves the day...

Yeah but imagine if I didn't have discord nitro and didn't pay $30+ dollars a month to boost the server to level 2? I wouldn't have been able to stream it. Wouldn't FG rather have that discord money through a FG mobile app? I'd rather give it to Smiteworks, but until new features are added, I'll stick to each week's random sales and that $5 art subscription that I don't even really use.

[LordEntrails]

It is an age old feature of these forums. There is an established group of users who make it a point to come into perfectly reasonable and good natured posts about what people would like to see the software be able to do, and tell people why they shouldn't want that or why it isn't useful. Contrast that with the owner of the company coming in and saying "thanks for the feedback", for some reason people feel the need to tell you you're wrong to want the software to be any different than it is right now.

I think it goes without saying that every suggestion would be filtered through the development process of Dev resource allocation, company priorities, etc. but people get very defensive around here for reasons I don't pretend to actually understand.

Interesting take. And I do understand what you are saying, and see other people who perceive the responses the same way as you do.

But I don't agree with your interpretations of the responses.

Trenloe put it pretty well (IMO) in post #33. And Damned in #34.

First, I rarely recall anyone imply something like "tell people why they shouldn't want..." But rather why want they want might not be something they should expect. i.e. expectation setting is important. There are many things I would love to be developed in FG, but I don't want to have the devs spend time on such because of 'reasons' (cost, practicality, etc). IMO, it doesn't do anyone justice to get all excited about something if it's not reasonable to expect it to be implemented.

Second, I don't see anyone coming into any post (except in rare occasions in which moderators are quick to address) without a "reasonable and good natured" attitude.

Third, IMO when someone says they don't agree with an idea, or don't think such would be useful; shouldn't we assume they are talking about their own use case and preference? I guess it's about giving others the benefit of the doubt.

Fourth, can it really go without saying that every suggestion be understood to be filtered like you suggest? Sure, they all should be. But, it certainly seems like people don't make that assumption. Kind of like with my point #2 & 3. If you are not assuming people are responding in good faith or with their personal preferences, should others assume that everyone is making these same assumption on filtering suggestions?

Finally, don't many of these people point people to the Wish List even when they don't agree with a suggestion (myself included)? Everything that is added to the Wish List is only filtered by the community votes. Which seems like a desirable type of filtering.

My perception on this might be wrong, but I do hope you consider them with the positive and constructive attitude they are intended to be presented.

[Sulimo]

Yeah but imagine if I didn't have discord nitro and didn't pay $30+ dollars a month to boost the server to level 2? I wouldn't have been able to stream it. Wouldn't FG rather have that discord money through a FG mobile app? I'd rather give it to Smiteworks, but until new features are added, I'll stick to each week's random sales and that $5 art subscription that I don't even really use.

When you say stream, do you mean streaming to something like Twitch or Youtube, or simple screen sharing?

If it's just for screen sharing, you do not need Nitro or boosting to do that, I've done it many times with free Discord to show people how to build characters in FG (Rolemaster).

I stream my sessions to Twitch via OBS, which is also free.

[MentalChillness]

When you say stream, do you mean streaming to something like Twitch or Youtube, or simple screen sharing?

If it's just for screen sharing, you do not need Nitro or boosting to do that, I've done it many times with free Discord to show people how to build characters in FG (Rolemaster).

I stream my sessions to Twitch via OBS, which is also free.

Yeah the Screensharing, but I upgraded it for the higher quality video and audio. My point still remains that a sort of mobile access point would've been more useful than screensharing discord.

[Neovirtus]

To be clear, I think this community is great, and I love FG, and bring in new users all the time. This is something I'm bringing up because I care, not because I want to cause damage. So please forgive me if I don't use specific examples, I don't want to be perceived as calling out any one person.

...I do understand what you are saying, and see other people who perceive the responses the same way as you do.

But I don't agree with your interpretations of the responses.

I felt like this was an issue when I joined the community 10 years ago (and said as much), and clearly there are people who still perceive it as an issue today, and there have been many in between. I've tried to speak up against this mentality over the years to try to create a more welcoming environment. The fact that you don't see it as a problem is not surprising to me. I'm trying to change that by speaking up as a relatively senior member of the community.

Trenloe put it pretty well (IMO) in post #33. And Damned in #34.

I agree, those two are great examples of the right (or better) way to approach this kind of discussion.

First, I rarely recall anyone imply something like "tell people why they shouldn't want..." But rather why want they want might not be something they should expect. i.e. expectation setting is important. There are many things I would love to be developed in FG, but I don't want to have the devs spend time on such because of 'reasons' (cost, practicality, etc). IMO, it doesn't do anyone justice to get all excited about something if it's not reasonable to expect it to be implemented.

I agree, it is important to set expectations. I think the tone of these comments is off to a greater degree than you are recognizing in this post, and in your general perception of the community at large. I think this is an agree to disagree point.

Second, I don't see anyone coming into any post (except in rare occasions in which moderators are quick to address) without a "reasonable and good natured" attitude.

All I'll say is there are people I've had muted/blocked here and on the Discord server for years at this point. Some of them in this very thread, perhaps! It's not that rare.

Third, IMO when someone says they don't agree with an idea, or don't think such would be useful; shouldn't we assume they are talking about their own use case and preference? I guess it's about giving others the benefit of the doubt.

Fourth, can it really go without saying that every suggestion be understood to be filtered like you suggest? Sure, they all should be. But, it certainly seems like people don't make that assumption. Kind of like with my point #2 & 3. If you are not assuming people are responding in good faith or with their personal preferences, should others assume that everyone is making these same assumption on filtering suggestions?

I of course, largely agree. I think the difference is perspective. People coming in here and saying "I'd really like it if FG could do X" has limited negative effect while the crowd that screams "NO" feels a little like piling on. Also, one is likely a person's first or very early interaction with the community, a time when they probably deserve some leeway/good faith. I know that not every user that comes in making demands in the form of requests deserves that same level of kid gloves, but I think the people who hang around these forums the most have a pretty good feel for the difference between that and what I'm talking about.

Finally, don't many of these people point people to the Wish List even when they don't agree with a suggestion (myself included)? Everything that is added to the Wish List is only filtered by the community votes. Which seems like a desirable type of filtering.

Sure. I don't have a problem with the wishlist really, outside the fact that it feels a little dismissive sometimes, especially when something that feels like a bug/issue gets referred to feature request purgatory... but that's really a separate issue from what we're discussing here.

My perception on this might be wrong, but I do hope you consider them with the positive and constructive attitude they are intended to be presented.

You are a gentleman and a scholar. We're both having this discussion because we care. I saw a new user getting kind of steam rolled and I thought I should speak up. Perhaps I wasn't at my most diplomatic and if I offended anyone I do apologize. Though if I can ruffle a few feathers and get people to think about the way they respond sometimes I'll consider that a worthwhile endeavor.

[LordEntrails]

To be clear, I think this community is great, and I love FG, and bring in new users all the time. This is something I'm bringing up because I care, not because I want to cause damage. So please forgive me if I don't use specific examples, I don't want to be perceived as calling out any one person.

You make a lot of good points. And thanks for engaging with me so positively. Let's see if we can make some progress

I felt like this was an issue when I joined the community 10 years ago (and said as much), and clearly there are people who still perceive it as an issue today, and there have been many in between. I've tried to speak up against this mentality over the years to try to create a more welcoming environment. The fact that you don't see it as a problem is not surprising to me. I'm trying to change that by speaking up as a relatively senior member of the community.

Please keep speaking up I agree with you that people do still see it as a problem, and it's important that the larger community does recognize this. What I would hope for is that we (the community) can figure out a way that is less negative to fewer people (did I say that right? i.e. is perceived with less negativity overall).

I agree, those two are great examples of the right (or better) way to approach this kind of discussion.

They have taught me a lot. I have tried to learn from them. Hopefully others can as well.

I agree, it is important to set expectations. I think the tone of these comments is off to a greater degree than you are recognizing in this post, and in your general perception of the community at large. I think this is an agree to disagree point.

I totally accept that. And in part my concern over that is why I want to engage with you (and others) on this. In this, I recognize my bias and limited perspective. Hopefully myself (and others?) can continue to grow and be better at recognizing others perspectives.

All I'll say is there are people I've had muted/blocked here and on the Discord server for years at this point. Some of them in this very thread, perhaps! It's not that rare.

That's a bit discouraging to me. Not because of your choice/actions, but because I see the community differently. Perhaps I'm too permissive in my views? But maybe not, maybe this is something you could learn from me while I learn from you? I don't know, but my part in it is something for me to think about

I of course, largely agree. I think the difference is perspective. People coming in here and saying "I'd really like it if FG could do X" has limited negative effect while the crowd that screams "NO" feels a little like piling on. Also, one is likely a person's first or very early interaction with the community, a time when they probably deserve some leeway/good faith. I know that not every user that comes in making demands in the form of requests deserves that same level of kid gloves, but I think the people who hang around these forums the most have a pretty good feel for the difference between that and what I'm talking about.

I'd like to think that we've gotten better in this regards. At least it seems to me through my rose tinted glasses! I think that in general folks are better than we were a few years ago about "piling on" as well as the kid gloves types of posts like Damned and Trenloe made in this thread.

But, I'm open to being told that I'm wrong.

Sure. I don't have a problem with the wishlist really, outside the fact that it feels a little dismissive sometimes, especially when something that feels like a bug/issue gets referred to feature request purgatory... but that's really a separate issue from what we're discussing here.

I get that. I do wish Moon et al would spend a bit more time statusing and closing Wish List items. I think that would help with the perception that it's a purgatory.

You are a gentleman and a scholar. We're both having this discussion because we care. I saw a new user getting kind of steam rolled and I thought I should speak up. Perhaps I wasn't at my most diplomatic and if I offended anyone I do apologize. Though if I can ruffle a few feathers and get people to think about the way they respond sometimes I'll consider that a worthwhile endeavor.

Thank you for doing that. It's a worthwhile effort! And you are plenty diplomatic. Just in this medium of internet forums it is much harder for all of us to understand intents and connotations and to interpret things per our expectations.

[anstett]

And these last two posts are why this community can be an example to others in the RPG community.

Thank you.

[valeros]

When discussing the ideas about tablets or phones, please remember that the full functionality does not need to be there and not everyone uses FG the same way. Even something small can be very useful and fun.

For example, previously I created a simple program that worked with FG to give the players some functionality on the phone. Only to move their characters, pan the map, and roll dice. But that was all we needed. FG displayed on a large screen TV and we had a blast playing in person. (DM was on a laptop connected to a different laptop that acted as the players FG which was displayed to the large screen TV.)

The DM could use the full power of FG and from their phones players could move their own characters around, move the map as needed, and of course Roll Dice! It was great!

And that is just something simple. With even a small API, a great number of things could be done. It does not need to be the full suite of FG functionality.

Here is all the user had on the phone. Simple and amateurish and nothing like the FG suite, but it worked for us to have fun which is what FG is here is support.