Thread: Static Cover Not Ignored
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April 12th, 2024, 14:56 #1
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Static Cover Not Ignored
If I put the effect
Code:[#LightCover]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover -2]
If I put the effect
Code:[Cover +2]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover -2]
Is that working as designed? I expected this to ignore two points of cover penalties.
This matters in the case of Dodge. It uses
Code:[Cover +2]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover]
Is that correct in regards to game mechanics?
As a note, I can put
Code:[>Ignore #Dodge]
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April 15th, 2024, 16:46 #2
Short answer is this working.
Longer answer: If this post seems a bit erratic, I am sorry. Most of it was cut together from all the discussions I had with the subject. I hope it makes sense.
Please indulge me as I try to parse out your code too literately. As the computer would. First here is syntax I understand it.
Cover bonus effect is <name> [Cover +x] or <name> [@Attack x]. Example Cover, Light[@Attack -2] or Disco [Cover +3].
Therefore, a weapon entry with Laser [>Ignore #Disco -1] ignores one point of Disco.
So now going through the posted code. Look how I try to parse this out.
[#LightCover] = call effect named Light<string>.
[>Ignore #Cover -2] on weapon. = Ignore thing named with the <string>
<Something> [Cover +2] = Something effect adds cover modifier.
On the attacking character's weapon [>Ignore #Cover -2] = neverminded Cover effect and no mention of Something Effect so that is applied.
<Something> [Cover +2] = Something effect adds cover modifier has a problem. What was something?
Dodge [Cover +2] = Effect Dodge [its actual using the edge name here] add cover modifer
[>Ignore #Dodge] = Ignore the Dodge effect
I hope I made sense
Ok now let’s get to the start of the an argument because someone will want to add ignore to the CT only and will not modify the weapon. The symbol > means apply to this out going attack roll. It can only be used on Weapon or attack rolls tab. Dagger of Badass [>Fighting +1] if you roll to attack with this weapon. [>Ignore will also work here.
However, people try to get the ignore to work by adding it to CT only. People want in on the CT without > as well.
[Ignore x] on combat tracker only works on two things. Local variables within the confines of the same character sheet. It also switches off global modifiers which automatically apply to everyone. I still can't find any evidence that it will change another local effect held on another character sheet. At least for NPCs. The only way it could do so is to attach it to die roll instead of putting it on as local effect on the CT. This is why adding a specific weapon works.
The last time I looked at it. I do not think it is a bug and others disagreed. I have yet to come up with anything to show where all effects on the CT are linked together. Ignore just on CT is just ignored. Ultimately is an Ikael question how can give a better answer that me.
Also note the answer pre-dated FGU 4.5+. New CT now so by all means testing this again is good idea.Last edited by Lonewolf; April 15th, 2024 at 17:25.
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April 16th, 2024, 15:18 #3
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Thanks for putting that together.
The gist of it is that when using Cover you must use a custom keyword.
For future reference, and to (hopefully) save Lonewolf from repeating it, here are the details as of FGU 4.5.5.
Putting simply,
Code:[Cover +2]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover -2]
Cover is a keyword, but isn't always honored. Unlike Shield, Illumination, MultiAction, Range ...
That's a one-off to note.
So to make the above work, you must put this on the defender
Code:Cover [Cover +2]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover -2]
And if you want the attacker's Cover penalty offset to work against shields, you must put explicitly declare a different effect
Code:[>Ignore #Shield -2]
Code:[>Ignore #Dodge -2]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover -2]
Note: on shields the effect is [Parry +3, Cover +4], no keyword
So, unlike a simple effect like
Code:[Ignore #Illumination]
Code:[>Ignore #Cover|#Shield|#Dodge -2]
If you make an item with cover, say a Ring of CYA, you must put this on the ring
Code:CYA [Cover +2]
Now the effect on our attacker's dagger is longer than the dagger itself.
Code:[>Ignore #Cover|#Shield|#Dodge|#CYA -2]
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April 17th, 2024, 22:33 #4
Sorry mike this going to turn into a muti-post essay. For the sake of clarity in my poor old brain. Lets break it down a bit more and cover everything.
This is not true. There is a custom keyword here and, in all examples, above. This can be proved by manually adding that exact stated modifier to CT
Code:[Parry +3, Cover +4]
What you are really looking at is item named SHIELD and effect is therefore really saying on the item is this
Code:Shield [Parry +3, Cover +4]
Here is a visual diagram of this working with NPCs.
tempsnip.jpg
The red line links modifier (Red text on its own on the CT will not work)
The Blue line shows inheritance of the item name to custom keyword.
The green is an ignore shield effect looking for keyword shield that was just inherited. The example of the manual input with no key word has no match. The version that inherited a name is matched.
The same principle would apply to an Edge like Dodge. Any modifier under the name = Name + Modifier = Effect.
I hope that helps.Last edited by Lonewolf; April 17th, 2024 at 23:54.
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April 17th, 2024, 22:46 #5
Ok the code aside it is important to look at game rules and point out an important point. Cover bonus does not stack in the rules A GM is better off arranging it for all cover bonus to be named and on the CT it games where it matters. Superpowers stand out as a good example of this. Then only switching on those the one single bonus that applies. So the example of;
Code:[>Ignore #Cover|#Shield|#Dodge -2]
Ok here a bit of a dream situation:
In an idea world Cover should be a derived stat. To make things easier to imagine (at least for me) let’s use a unique name in this post that can't be confused by another game term. A derived stat called "Hidden":
on ITEM Shield
Code:[Hidden +1]
If we want to add another +1 it checks if 1 > 1. False do nothing to total.
If the bonus is +2 it checks if 2 > 1. True. Make the total 2.
Copying the derived stat to the CT like size and now we have an actual hard coded field to work with. Just a thought I had along the way the first time ignore “Hidden” came up in an effects conversation.Last edited by Lonewolf; April 18th, 2024 at 01:09.
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April 17th, 2024, 23:05 #6
I think where the confusion lies for most people in is remote calling another effect name:
Code:[Ignore #Illumination]
Code:Illumination, Dark [Attack|Notice -4]
The examples given above assume that cover is a special case. That does not appear true from what I can see in testing.
Code:[>Ignore #Cover]
Code:Cover, Heavy [@Attack -6]
Code:Dodge [Cover +1]
Code:[Cover +1]
Code:Dodge [Cover +1]
The second reason is you can't stack bonus anyway in the rules. Source names in chat also looks better.
Lets finish off by solving the CYA ring example above with a shorter bit of code:
The problem is self created here becuase of the CYA name selected for effect. Now your are forced to use CYA as a keyword.
Code:CYA [#Cover Light]
So a weapon with
Code:[>Ignore #Cover]
At which point someone say what about CYA whilst standing in Light Cover. Worn by someone who has Dodge !
The answer is cover does not stack which another problem for another day.
Sorry Mike if you got this far. Best I could to break it down very late one nightLast edited by Lonewolf; April 18th, 2024 at 04:32.
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April 18th, 2024, 17:07 #7
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Thanks Lonewolf!
The explanation covers rules, how effects work, and a peek behind the scenes.
This kind of information should be in a game mechanics wiki; it's the kind of info needed by GMs who use effects extensively.
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April 19th, 2024, 16:46 #8
Good deduction guys!
Savage Worlds Effects wiki page definitely need improvements regarding ignore expression but they defined there: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/FGCP/pages/996643800/Savage+Worlds+Effects
Short answer to topic is: you can define Ignore only against # effect references.
The simple [Cover +2] is old notation from early stage of the effect framework before #@>$ etc notations were a thing
The wiki page could be updated to state
Ignore effect expressions
Ignore effects are used to reduced or completely ignore other effect modifiers. Only effect references can be used in ignore effect expressionsLast edited by Ikael; April 19th, 2024 at 16:52.
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April 20th, 2024, 03:46 #9
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Thanks for the clarification and history. I updated my document and extension.
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April 22nd, 2024, 20:42 #10
Templar
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Hey Ikeal!
If you'd like to send over a document with additions, edits, omissions, etc. for the SWADE docs, I'd be happy to update it in the wiki. Just let me know what needs changed and where it should reside in the document, and I'll get it updated right away.
Thanks,
WishX (Derek)
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