PF2e - rules set quality?

[Morfedel]

So, after the OGL fiasco, been considering switching to PF 2nd ed, but wanted to ask, how good is the rules set?

[MaxAstro]

Do you mean "how good is PF2e as a system?" or "how good is Fantasy Grounds support for PF2e?"

In either case the answer is really, really good. Trenloe, ShadeRaven, and everyone else working on PF2e for Fantasy Grounds care a lot about adding as much convenience and automation to the ruleset as humanly possible. There's so much that it does for you that I just can't imagine running game without it.

As far as the system itself - it's definitely very different from 5e. It's crunchier (not as crunchy as 3.5, though) and definitely more challenging. A party with bad teamwork can find themselves getting beat up pretty badly by on-level encounters. The math is very tight, though, and the system doesn't "break" at any point - you can run 20th level games as cleanly as 1st level games. It's also the easiest system to run as a GM out of any system I've ever run. Plus, the character creation options are surprisingly deep, and actually make a big difference in how characters feel in play. You could easily have a party of four monks and have them all play completely differently (in fact I basically do in the Fist of the Ruby Phoenix campaign I'm running; with one exception every character is either a monk or multiclassed into monk, but they all have very distinctive styles).

[Morfedel]

I was talking about how Fantasy Grounds handles it. I was debating between FGU or Foundry. I am already sold on PF2e, though I am new at it.

I own both VTTs, though I have a LOT of time and money invested in FGU already, vs almost nothing in Foundry, so I am leaning towards FG. But foundry DOES do a few things that FG doesnt, and it seems the PF2e community really pushes Foundry over FGU, and I got the PF2e stuff super cheap due to a humble bundle, so, well, I'm debating on the pros and cons here of which vtt to use.

I also like using Talespire, and Foundry does kind of cause me a little more disjointed interactions betweem them vs FGU, so thats another consideration.

[Trenloe]

Fantasy Grounds has the largest amount of official Paizo PF2 material available on any VTT platform - over 130 products with new releases being made on, or close to, the Paizo release date of the product (with the odd exception due to ruleset code complexity or converters playing catchup). So there's plenty of official PF2 content available for Fantasy Grounds.

See the product conversion status thread here for details of what's been converted and what is close to release: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...version-Status

There's a lot of automation coded into the ruleset and converted products, with more being added all the time. The upcoming Release 19 (heading to test soon) has a massive update in terms of expanded player side automation of actions/activities.

Check out some of the videos here: https://www.youtube.com/@martinblake4215/videos

There's been a few GMs who've moved from running D&D 5E on Fantasy Grounds to running PF2 who have praised the amount of automation/functionality in the PF2 ruleset. The main difference is that PF2 doesn't have the 5E Character Wizard, but it does have a chargen tracker that facilitates and provides guidance in the character creation and maintenance process. The Eldritch Trickster video shows the most recent chargen tracker functionality and runs through how to create an Eldritch Trickster Rogue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi030mCKyEk

As you're already invested in Fantasy Grounds then I think you'd should give PF2 a go. Either with the Beginner Box or the Core Rules (plus an adventure if you're the GM) and give it a go - if you're not satisfied (and you buy the products from the FG store) there's a no questions asked 30 refund policy.

If you decide to take the plunge, please come back to the forums with any questions you may have.

[Morfedel]

Good to know, thanks for the info!

[MaxAstro]

I will say that Foundry is definitely cheaper than Fantasy Grounds, no question there. Significantly cheaper, even.

However, you get what you pay for, in my opinion. The Fantasy Grounds crew here is extremely patient and responsive, and typically very quick to fix any issues that are reported. On top of that there is just - like I said above - so much automation that Fantasy Grounds does for you. There is some things Foundry does that FG doesn't, but there is a lot that FG does that Foundry leaves you to do yourself.

At least that was true the last time I looked at Foundry, which was a year or two ago. It's possible that Foundry's automation has progressed since then - but it's also definitely true that FG's automation is constantly improving.

[Gwaihir Scout]

I also did not think much of Foundry's automation compared to FG a year ago. It's certainly prettier, though.

[dsaraujo]

Personally, I moved all my PF2 campaigns to Foundry this year as they now have pretty much all the capabilities of automation of FG, with one big exception (Players cannot directly effect NPCs, so more work on the GM to add effects and damage). I still love FG, but I think it is getting behind in features and capabilities. Pricing was never an issue for me, and with newer support for modules available as paid content there, I just moved. I'll be happy to switch back if FG goes back to be ahead of the curve. A big factor for me to switch was also Syrinscape support (now fully integrated with Foundry if you have a SuperSyrin sub via extension), and performance issues (some of my players PCs had issues to run FG satisfactory).

[Atreides Ghola]

So, after the OGL fiasco, been considering switching to PF 2nd ed, but wanted to ask, how good is the rules set?

Just the opposite here - I used Foundry VTT for PF2e for about a year, and switched back to FGU.

As stated, Foundry has done a lot of catching up to FGU, and for the most part works very well. But, it doesn't have an Combat Tracker or centralized way to view all of the information on statuses that you can interact with - so while Foundry has an Initiative Tracker, it's not as comprehensive as FGUs, and you cannot directly add, edit, or change effects in any way. The CT alone was reason enough for me to return to FGU. Also, as stated in an above post, players can only change things on their own actors, and cannot apply to anything else. This means that automation in Foundry always has a point of interruption that the GM has to attend to.

So that leaves the GM responsible for taking care of all damage, all spell effects, calculating resistances, adding status conditions, and more. It's a huge PITA, and since there's no good central CT, it adds plenty of time to each combat turn.

A major feature that Foundry has implemented that FGU has not (though it is the focus of v19 and is coming sometime in the future) is the presence of a tab that has all actions that a PC can use and which will roll against the appropriate DC if an actor is targeted. So, it's super easy for players to do things like RK checks against a target; the GM doesn't have to interrupt the flow of the game.

So, if the CT is of major importance to you - you won't find anything like it in Foundry, or any other VTT that I am aware of.

Keep in mind also that FGU's Paizo products are more varied and useful. While you can get the APs for Foundry starting back with Outlaws of Alkenstar, there's no access to the content of the other books, like the Lost Omens campaign books. The OGL material is added to the Foundry Compendiums, but that's it. They don't offer books like these for sale - they just enter any new spell, class, archetype, etc. data. The useful exception here is the Gamemastery Guide. You can use all of the alternate rules in Foundry already.

Also, if you're interested in running Kingmaker - there's no telling when it will be available in Foundry, and they get pissy when you ask. I find this to be a problem with the Foundry PF2e community. They're pretty full of themselves.

[dsaraujo]

Atreides has all good points, and I agree with them. I prefer the model of Combat Tracker versus the old Roll20 model of tokens as entities that can be linked to actors as well. Old material is also a great point: one of the reasons I kept playing with FG was the fact that my current campaign, a Rise of the Runelords conversion to 2E, was available on FG marketplace in its original form (1E). Having all text and maps was very convenient, it wasn't until I found a 2E conversion readily available for Foundry that I fully moved.

Only one nitpick though: you can do any all skill actions versus targeted opponents DCs already on Foundry. By default the actions are not pre-populated on the character sheets, but there is a default macro available to populate and for each individual action. Makes things like Demoralize and Bon Mot a breeze.

I also recommend anyone that wants to have the amazing Lost Omens content available in their VTTs to go with Fantasy Grounds, as you only have rules/mechanics on the Foundry side. If you want to use the amazing Absalom, city of Lost Omens, for example, for a campaign based on that city, FG is by far your best choice. If you just want to play APs, starting with Outlaws of Alkenstar, I think Foundry is (currently as in April 2023) a better choice.