18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[Weissrolf]

What a PDF "allows" via the file settings does not create a legal agreement. Those settings also allow printing. That doesn't mean I can just print dozens of copies and give them to my friends for free.

While everyone here tries to push the PDF import module into the "you are not allowed to distribute content for free" corner, this is not what it does. It only locally copies the content out of your local PDF files for personal use, which is allowed. Just like I can indeed print dozens of copies for myself and usually you also print copies of maps and NPC images both for papers on the table or digital usage in a VTT while playing with friends.

Last but not least, for multiple PF2 adventure paths there are "map remake" modules where some guy remade all maps in Dungeondraft using 3rd party assets and then shared those on Reddit (importable to FGU, too) and Foundry.

[Weissrolf]

I think this is also going on a bit of a sidetrack.

5E is the most popular VTT gaming system for FGU, Roll20 etc.

Dnd5E reached a plateau and stalled in content development, while PF2 publishes another adventure book every single month alongside other publications. Pathfinder 2E not only gets new users from PF1E, but also sees more and more people switching from 5E.

These are the growth numbers of the PF2E Reddit, it hit over 40k members lately:


The 5E Reddit has over 65k members. But while there are over 270 PF2 Reddit users online at this time, there are only 33 5E users online (and only 3 when I checked earlier today). FGU's Reddit has 7.4 k members with 4 currently online.

While it might work for some systems, clearly a VTT option for 5E (which again is the most popular) my points still stand above why people likely are going to be using Roll20 or FGU for a long while before changing to FoundryVTT. Assuming that Roll20 or FGU don't upgrade to change things that make the comparison into going to another VTT less likely.

More people seem to be trying to switch from Roll20 to Foundry than trying to switch from Roll20 to FGU. The entrance hurdle is much lower, the technology stack is better and the community is both larger (over 20k Discord members) and stronger (more active participants). One-time purchase is cheaper unless you try the FGU subscription model for a first look.

Personally, I still see people leaving and going to FoundryVTT because FGU is slow to update and change, Roll20 has a massive number of users and it's likely the least liked but easiest to currently use/get into.

It's tech based, slow innovation is slow death.

We had a mostly smooth running FGU session today, mostly issues with proper token targeting. I told my player with the extreme potato PC to use the /gc command after first load and after switching maps.

[Weissrolf]

Also worth mentioning: the community mods on both the Foundry Discord and dedicated Foundry PF2E Discord very meticulously work to keep everything within the license and also underline themselves that Archive of Nethys might have different license agreements with Paizo. They are also in talks with Paizo and actively encourage Paizo to offer content (which likely would hurt Roll20 and FGU as license partner for digital PF2 content).

And I am perma-banned from both Discords, so it's not like I have to plug them because of any close relationship. In fact I obviously disagree about some fundamental things with at least single members of Foundry staff and Foundry PF2 system developers/mods, else I wouldn't have been kicked out. :P

[revanmaster]

If you were talking about the pdf to extension tool for the other app it's actually only extracting maps, and such. The dev is actually doing everything else though, and has a patreon for support. Recall Knowledge was person that talked about the tool,

[Weissrolf]

It is also creates journal entries with the PDF text and handout images and includes pre-placed map pins for journal notes on the maps.

[ddavison]

The PDF importer module does not distribute the content. The GM's client browser extract the data from the local PDF file and then writes it to the local Foundry PF2 world folder (if hosted locally). This works with the internet completely disconnected.


It does not.


The PDF import module is written by a single person and of course has to be manually massaged by said developer to properly extract the content, but the content is still extracted from the PDF file, not downloaded from the web. Additionally wall, lighting and token placement data has to be added (and thus manually be created by said person). The module developer offers this for free, but can be supported via patron to collect some money for buying the PDF files from Paizo for import preparations.

Where does all that LOS and placement data come from if it all works from the PDF without an Internet connection? It’s coming from the tool author directly. You don’t think he is sending anything other than LOS? My guess is that you don’t really know what is coming from an external source. Having actually done the conversions from PDF and InDesign files programmatically, I can tell you that there is insufficient info and structure to make a complete module by only looking at the PDF. Building a processing instruction unique for each supported PDF without using any non-OGL content would be next to impossible.

[MrDDT]

Dnd5E reached a plateau and stalled in content development, while PF2 publishes another adventure book every single month alongside other publications. Pathfinder 2E not only gets new users from PF1E, but also sees more and more people switching from 5E.

These are the growth numbers of the PF2E Reddit, it hit over 40k members lately:


The 5E Reddit has over 65k members. But while there are over 270 PF2 Reddit users online at this time, there are only 33 5E users online (and only 3 when I checked earlier today). FGU's Reddit has 7.4 k members with 4 currently online.

I'm not sure how reddit groups rank in tracking how many people are using a VTT for PF2 vs 5E, however, I can tell you without a doubt that 5E is at least 10x more popular than PF2.

You can check this with Roll20 or even just looking at sales of 5E books vs PF2 books. Now maybe in 5years PF2 might make a dent in 5E (I doubt it as we have more content on the way for 5E/6E/LevelUp) but whatever.

The point is that 5E holds a massive market share not only over PF2, but ALL other gaming systems. In fact based on 2020 numbers, 5E has more market share than all other gaming systems combined.

If I had to make a guess on why some random reddit, is growing faster (65k members is like nothing, when you compare the numbers of millions of people on Roll20), it is likely because that's one of the few ways they can get in touch with each other as they are struggling to find a place to find players and contact each other. While 5E has so many other places.

[Weissrolf]

I am not sure what you are trying to prove by repeatedly suggesting "illegal" activity from a community member sharing his very legal and self-exploiting work for free? That's rather rude.

Of course the wall data comes from the the installed module. I can also export wall and light data from what I created myself as JSON file, which then can be imported by others. As long as we are using the same PDF map file with same ratio and grid setting it will fit, even regardless of image resolution.

This is what a prepared Starfinder map looks like without the map image background. Anyone can import this, import the PDF map image as background and start playing. Last time I checked wall data was not subject to licensing and Paizo doesn't even provide their own VTT wall data. Instead that one guy prepares the walls and then includes them in the installed module. Nothing shady or even surprising about that.



I shared that data without the license protected background image and anyone can import it and just add the image from their own PDF themselves. It's no rocket science, just simple JSON text data.

[Weissrolf]

I'm not sure how reddit groups rank in tracking how many people are using a VTT for PF2 vs 5E, however, I can tell you without a doubt that 5E is at least 10x more popular than PF2.

Likely even over 30x times more popular. But that doesn't mean that 5E VTT users are willing to deal with the high entry barriers of FGU. Those who want easy use Roll20, those who want tinkering use Foundry, those who use FGU have to hope that it works properly on their systems and curse the UI.

[MrDDT]

Likely even over 30x times more popular. But that doesn't mean that 5E VTT users are willing to deal with the high entry barriers of FGU. Those who want easy use Roll20, those who want tinkering use Foundry, those who use FGU have to hope that it works properly on their systems and curse the UI.

I agree with your points, which I stated before, I was saying how people are UNlikely to change from their current VTT because 5E is so popular and FVTT doesn't make it easy to get into 5E. Which again as I stated.

My point is that as much as I think FVTT is going to be good (and is good) for most users FVTT is currently not a great option to switch to, or even for newer users to get into.

Which is why I think FGU a good window here but in a few years, that window is likely going to close of why use FGU over another VTT (likely FVTT).

I'm committed for a while to use FGU (likely never changing as the change would be too much $ and not enough players for a long long time). I do see the tides turning to FVTT. I hope SW can keep up with tech and fixing issues to keep FGU good enough to keep FVTT at bay, they still have time.