18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[HywelPhillips]

I'll check out Warhammer 4th Ed on Foundry, thanks! Like you I'm happy to change tool depending on how well it does a certain job. For example, I'm thinking of running some of the old SAGA Dragonlance system at some point and actually the one which best supports that right now is Roll20.

I think they all have strengths and weaknesses and for sure the amount of work done in the ruleset has a lot to do with it As I said at the top of my reviews my experience is mainly with 5E, especially as a player rather than GM.

How do you find Foundry on the GM organisational side? I've only run commercial short scenarios using it so far so I've not got a good feel for how much of the documentation for an extended homebrew campaign you can sensibly develop inside Foundry; it's one of the strengths of FG for me that it supports GM organisation pretty well out of the box.

Cheers, Hywel

[Dr0W]

I prefer prepping and running games on FG. Being able to drag and drop links pretty much everywhere really helps me out. I also prefer dealing with encounters using the CT than using tokens for that.

With that said, my players' opinions are quite the opposite. Those who have used FG for years will sometimes struggle with some basic functions like targeting or dropping an attack on a token. On foundry, for most of the systems and with a couple of extensions, they don't even need any explanation and proceed do to most of the tasks without a problem. Being able to run a combat and using actions directly from the token is a bliss for players.

So on fg I spend less time prepping and have less trouble gming, but I spend some time helping players. On foundry I spend more time prepping, but I rarely have players asking "how do I attack again? I can't target! Which button is the attack and which is the damage?"

[HywelPhillips]

That's interesting. The group I am playing with on Foundry hasn't done a huge number of sessions but we've had at least as many "how do I target again?" questions in Foundry as my groups had in FG at similar number of weeks in.

That's what I was talking about when I said the double-right-clicking to select (Foundry) isn't superior to CTRL-clicking to select (FG): neither is obvious to a new player. I always start new FG players off with dragging and dropping - they get the hang of dragging and dropping the attack rolls and damage rolls from their character sheet onto the token on the map pretty quickly. Then I introduce the targeting idea when they want to affect more than one enemy at once.

So there's probably a lot of chance involved with what the group is trying to do as to which features they need to access in which order and which things they've discovered for themselves already, and I'm sure it'll vary quite widely by group and by ruleset.

Undeniably though there is a significant contingent who find the FG interface off-putting, it comes up time and again in discussions amongst people who tried it and decided to settle on another platform instead.

Cheers, Hywel

[Ulric]

I have run Starfinder for several years for a group of players that previously started playing 5e on Roll20. Other than my Starfinder and 5e campaign they continue to play on Roll20. These players often make disparaging remarks about FG which annoys me because FG gameplay has been rock solid. They regularly have problems with Roll20 during their weekly Roll20 game but I hardly ever hear them complain about Roll20. Their last Roll20 game one of the players could only see the GM map. It turns out after searching the Roll20 forums that this issue was reported to the Devs months ago and still no fix or response. The level of support from SW owners and employees plus the awesome community of FG players is unmatched by any other VTT. I see Foundry as a young SW. I hope SW and Foundry continue to grow and make each other better. For now FGU is my current go to VTT.

[Dr0W]

That's what I was talking about when I said the double-right-clicking to select (Foundry) isn't superior to CTRL-clicking to select (FG): neither is obvious to a new player. I always start new FG players off with dragging and dropping - they get the hang of dragging and dropping the attack rolls and damage rolls from their character sheet onto the token on the map pretty quickly. Then I introduce the targeting idea when they want to affect more than one enemy at once.

Since the first time I've used Foundry, I've used an extension that allows for targeting that works by ALT-Clicking, which I find to be a requirement for the GM since only the player can double-right click. So in that regard it becomes really close to FG, but the real difference is how the targeting actually works: On FG it's token based: Each token has their own targeting. On Foundry it is client based: The player targets something, and when any of their controlled characters attack, they will attack that one token. The real difference is visibility: On FG my players very often forget that they actually need to select their tokens to be able to see who they are targeting, so it's very common that they are trying to ctrl+click stuff and nothing happens (Actually it happens, but the player has no visual clue unless they remember to click their token first).

The only Ruleset I've seen behaving like that on FG was the Ad&d for I believe Celestian implemented a target crosshair to show up on the token that's being targeted by the current actor in the CT.

[MrDDT]

Since the first time I've used Foundry, I've used an extension that allows for targeting that works by ALT-Clicking, which I find to be a requirement for the GM since only the player can double-right click. So in that regard it becomes really close to FG, but the real difference is how the targeting actually works: On FG it's token based: Each token has their own targeting. On Foundry it is client based: The player targets something, and when any of their controlled characters attack, they will attack that one token. The real difference is visibility: On FG my players very often forget that they actually need to select their tokens to be able to see who they are targeting, so it's very common that they are trying to ctrl+click stuff and nothing happens (Actually it happens, but the player has no visual clue unless they remember to click their token first).

The only Ruleset I've seen behaving like that on FG was the Ad&d for I believe Celestian implemented a target crosshair to show up on the token that's being targeted by the current actor in the CT.

There are a few exts on FGU that does this for you.
I use Combat Groups EXT (https://forge.fantasygrounds.com/shop/items/154/view)
CoreRPG Combat Highlighter is another one. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...at-Highlighter)
When it's the players turn (or NPC for the GM) the token will automatically be selected. Allowing easy use of control clicking targets.

[shishz]

Agreed on two problems: Performance & "UI".

A VTT should be blazing fast even on midlevel hardware. This, I think, can be fixed over time as opposed to...

Now, the UI itself is not that bad. The bigger issue is the multiple-document interface. That absolutely is an abomination. Especially now that multiple monitors are common place too. The sad part here is it seems smiteworks has decided it is impossible to offer a sdi type interface.

Having said that, fg's positives still overcome it's limitations.

[HywelPhillips]

Since the first time I've used Foundry, I've used an extension that allows for targeting that works by ALT-Clicking, which I find to be a requirement for the GM since only the player can double-right click. So in that regard it becomes really close to FG, but the real difference is how the targeting actually works: On FG it's token based: Each token has their own targeting. On Foundry it is client based: The player targets something, and when any of their controlled characters attack, they will attack that one token. The real difference is visibility: On FG my players very often forget that they actually need to select their tokens to be able to see who they are targeting, so it's very common that they are trying to ctrl+click stuff and nothing happens (Actually it happens, but the player has no visual clue unless they remember to click their token first).

The only Ruleset I've seen behaving like that on FG was the Ad&d for I believe Celestian implemented a target crosshair to show up on the token that's being targeted by the current actor in the CT.

Ah, fair comment. I've been using MatteKure's SelectOnTurn and 5E Indictors, which do likewise.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/353...-5E-Indicators
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/358...Select-on-Turn

Another reason I've probably got away with it is by introducing new players to the drag-and-drop-the-dice-on-the-monster's-head-on-the-map method of attacking and doing damage which doesn't require targeting at all. The people playing wizards soon learn how to target multiple creatures but the barbarians and rogues never need to

In fairness to vanilla FG, it does have the targeting/range arrow indicator, and it does show who you are targeting on the combat tracker. So at least there is some feedback if players have the CT open. But having the indicators extension certainly makes it clearer what's going on: blue arrows highlight token whose turn is active on the CT, yellow ones highlight their targets:

Screenshot 2021-09-03 at 19.41.18.jpg

I'll have to look for the ALT-CLICK module for Foundry as that's been annoying me trying to run games there.


Which goes to show what I said in my reviews - I don't think either Foundry or FG's UI is ideal, for all that the hate is all directed FG's way I don't think Foundry's UI is actually all that intuitive either. I think it is inherent in representing something as messy and complicated as a TTRPG system inside a VTT; there's so many things you might want to do, especially when you move beyond representing tokens on a map and making them proper representations of the RPG character that can attack, take damage, make saves, etc..

Cheers, Hywel

[dmbrown]

I agree with drOW about the WFRP ruleset for Foundry as I have it and it is very well done. I started following Foundry just to see the progress of the Warhammer ruleset. I would have preferred that the developer stuck with FG, but he decided to jump ship.

I did look at 5e and SWADE, but neither one of those on Foundry could touch FG. As was mentioned previously you had to have a bunch of modules loaded just to come close to 5e in vanilla FG. SWADE was better with the official content, but it is no where near what FG could do.

A player in my group is going to try and GM a WFRP campaign in Foundry, so we’ll see how that goes. He is complaining about the interface and is use to FG, but we’ll see how that goes.

[JohnD]

The mind boggles in 2021 that there are people who struggle with clicking a link and then running an install program, never mind creating a forum account.

But... yes I have experienced people with such challenges.

They usually also struggle with advanced concepts such as the mysterious double click and the confounding left click.

The summaries of each VTT seem to be comprehensive enough.