Have I got the 5e Spell action economy right?

[Ludd_G]

"You can also ready an action to cast a spell to get a stronger spell with your reaction, however that means you're not casting in the round you ready it, and if you don't use it you lose the slot. So high risk option."

This was the bit that I was wondering about. Thanks for the confirmation of my hazy memories with regards Ready Spells!

I must say I'm glad I started this thread as it's really helped me work though some of the nuances that aren't very clear in the rules text, so thank you all!

[Ludd_G]

So, I've tweaked the table a little, to take into account Action Surge and the fact that whether you choose to cast a Cantrip or Spell affects if you can cast a Reaction Spell on your turn. I think it makes sense, although it many be a little more complex on first look, and will definitely be an aid for me explaining options to my newer spell casters.

[GavinRuneblade]

I'm not sure I agree about the Ready Spell Action allowing you to bypass the Bonus Spell/Cantrip restriction, if that's what you meant?

I'm sure I read (I think it was a Sage Advice entry but can't find it) that the choice of Spell is determined when you ready it not when you release it, so even though the spell would be released not on your turn, it is still restricted to only being a Cantrip if a Spell/Cantrip has been/will be cast on your turn.

I didn't mean bypass the cantrip limit, I wasn't clear with "stronger spell" but I meant stronger than counterspell or shield or other options normally limited to reactions. By using the ready an action you can ready any spell at all, even meteor swarm, on one turn, then cast it with your reaction when the trigger situation appears. This would then replace the step 1 in my example. The most common use for this strategy is when the party has a moment to prepare before starting a fight, such as "we know there's guards on the other side of this door, I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act". Everyone readies an action and the chosen person forces the door. On that person's turn everyone uses their reactions to fire arrows, lob fireballs, etc. On that acting person's turn. Then in the same round but on their turns they still get their full set of actions. Much stronger than just counterspell or shield or absorb elements.

And again, you are correct it cannot bypass the limit of cantrips only. Which I never said it could, but I was ambiguous on what I meant.

[Ludd_G]

Ah, yes, as I suspected, I did indeed misinterpret your meaning! My bad! But also good as it gave me another reason to go over my understanding of the RAW and RAI, which helped me organise my thoughts and tighten up my table, so thank you for that!

As with everyone else, your input has been gratefully received and really helpful. Cheers!

Simon

[Milmoor]

I didn't mean bypass the cantrip limit, I wasn't clear with "stronger spell" but I meant stronger than counterspell or shield or other options normally limited to reactions. By using the ready an action you can ready any spell at all, even meteor swarm, on one turn, then cast it with your reaction when the trigger situation appears. This would then replace the step 1 in my example. The most common use for this strategy is when the party has a moment to prepare before starting a fight, such as "we know there's guards on the other side of this door, I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act". Everyone readies an action and the chosen person forces the door. On that person's turn everyone uses their reactions to fire arrows, lob fireballs, etc. On that acting person's turn. Then in the same round but on their turns they still get their full set of actions. Much stronger than just counterspell or shield or absorb elements.

And again, you are correct it cannot bypass the limit of cantrips only. Which I never said it could, but I was ambiguous on what I meant.

I used to play it like that, since that feels most natural at first. But I found out officially it doesn't work like that. Combat starts with announcing: "I'll kick the door in". Initiative is rolled, and those who are surprised can't act or move. They can react after their turn. Those on your team who are faster than the kicker will have to ready to be able to do something offensive like lobbing a fireball. There is no surprise round of freely chopping up the guards. They "just" can't act. If your party is slow, it could be that some of the guard can defend with a Shield spell or even do an Attack of Opportunity if you try to run past them. You can't Ready first round, and start combat in the second. So you can't have both a readied action and a normal action in the first round of combat. If you do try, the guards won't be surprised anymore (since all will have had their turn in turn 1) and will be able to act in turn 2. Maybe even barricade the door before it's kicked in.

More info here:
https://dmsworkshop.com/2018/07/13/t...urprise-round/
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...surprise-round
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Compendium.pdf, search for surprise

[GavinRuneblade]

I used to play it like that, since that feels most natural at first. But I found out officially it doesn't work like that. Combat starts with announcing: "I'll kick the door in". Initiative is rolled, and those who are surprised can't act or move. They can react after their turn. Those on your team who are faster than the kicker will have to ready to be able to do something offensive like lobbing a fireball. There is no surprise round of freely chopping up the guards. They "just" can't act. If your party is slow, it could be that some of the guard can defend with a Shield spell or even do an Attack of Opportunity if you try to run past them. You can't Ready first round, and start combat in the second. So you can't have both a readied action and a normal action in the first round of combat. If you do try, the guards won't be surprised anymore (since all will have had their turn in turn 1) and will be able to act in turn 2. Maybe even barricade the door before it's kicked in.

More info here:
https://dmsworkshop.com/2018/07/13/t...urprise-round/
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...surprise-round
https://media.wizards.com/2015/downl...Compendium.pdf, search for surprise

You're not quite understanding what I've said. I'm aware of how surprise works. The fact is surprise doesn't matter in my example, which is why I set up the specific one that I did.

RAW the DM can as for the party to roll init when the PCs announce the door is being kicked open, or after the door is kicked open, and may or may not let the party pre-cast bless, etc. It is not mandatory that the DM call for init after the door is open. In the first case anyone who beats the door kicker could try to stop them from kicking it open, take an action, get setup, ready a spell whatever. After, it depends if the mage beats the door kicker. If so nova immediately. If not, nova on round 2. Either way, enemy surprise doesn't matter. If the DM lets them pre-cast then you can pre-cast and ready. Again, surprise doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is if the DM allows the party to get ready before the door is kicked open or not.

Here is the literal worst case scenario, no pre-casting, init rolled after the door is open, enemy not surprised and gets good rolls the mage is dead last.

round 1: everyone acts no one casts a spell or triggers the mage's reaction.
Mage can either take my noted actions 2-5 or setup for round 2. Taking 2-5 might look like this:
2. misty step
3. firebolt cantrip
4. quickened firebolt cantrip
5. reaction using shield or absorb elements or counterspell before the mage's next turn.

Or Mage can setup round 2 by readying a fireball and moving, maybe using a bonus action for something other than a spell if they have those options.

Round 2 goes:
1. reaction: cast readied fireball
2 - 5 as above

Either way, the enemy being surprised doesn't matter, you can still do it. when you roll initiative doesn't matter, you can still do it. It just is nova on round 1 or nova on round 2 and that is the player's choice.

Most DM's, given my example with the PCs ambushing known enemies who aren't aware of them, would allow either pre-casting or taking an action before the door is opened. But even if not, it still works.

[Milmoor]

Ok, I get it now. I misunderstood your sequencing.

"I'm going to kick it in and you guys ready actions to hit them before they can act" will translate to a ready on the trigger 'the door is kicked in'. The 'before they can act' is a consequence, not a cause.