Anyone sick of d20?

[azbo]

Min Maxing never bothered me as a player or a DM. I guess I'm probably guilty of it a little myself but I still consider myself a pretty solid roleplayer and even though I usually seek to be somewhat formidable by developing a particular tactic in combat (be it sneak attacks as rogue, combat spells as a mage or high damage weaponry as a fighter) but if you're thinking about roleplaying virtually any character in the worlds of DnD who was going to risk engaging in combat with other characters and "monsters" would likely practice some form of effective defense as a highest priority. Warriors would in fact practice heavily with a weapon (specialization) so that they could defeat their opponents and save their lives. min maxing is not incongruous with good roleplaying. 3rd level characters with dragon mounts is another thing. even 15th level characters with dragon mounts gets boring. I would much rather be in the campaign with the kobolds and few magic items but i'll be doing my best to be effective in that world as I would in any other.

I think you need to limit yourself to a certain number of expansions and the DM needs a system to help prepare NPC's if you're going to have lots of encounters with NPC types.

[unerwünscht]

All I have to say to any DM who feels they do not have an issue with Min-Maxing is "Let me play in your game... Just once.... I will change your mind"

Gold Dragon Mounts aside, wait till you see what can be done with ..... Hmm well any class in the game really.

[azbo]

All I have to say to any DM who feels they do not have an issue with Min-Maxing is "Let me play in your game... Just once.... I will change your mind"

Gold Dragon Mounts aside, wait till you see what can be done with ..... Hmm well any class in the game really.

That's a ridiculous suposition. The DM controls the game and an effective DM scales the encounters to the party. No matter how tough you are there is always someone tougher. I like grittier types of games where some of the quests available to you are tougher than you can handle without some serious planning and/or luck. When you hear about ruins where other adventurers have gone and not returned in my campaigns that should be a warning to you that there is significant danger. Minmaxing doesn't overbalance game, as a DM you're semi omnipotent how can a characters stats or skills be beyond your ability to chalenge the party? Monty haul campaigns aren't at all the same as min maxing. NBA players who work on speed, endurance and strength in the off season are real life examples of minmaxing they still are challenged by opposing players (especially those who work as hard as they do).

[unerwünscht]

So you accept the challenge then?

[kyxmma]

Lol this is kind of funny but I think Unerwundcht has a good chance of winning but I may be wrong though.

[philth]

My favorite system is a tie between savage worlds or ubiquity system because they are both simple yet there is a decent amount of character customization. Also you can't be a power player in those systems.

Never played ubiquity, but there are plenty opportunities to min/max in SW.

[joshuha]

Never played ubiquity, but there are plenty opportunities to min/max in SW.

Yep, even in a big thread on the Pinnacle boards about how to min/max.

[kyxmma]

I am enlightened! lol. Even so I don't think it can be as bad as 3.5. But I may be wrong again.

[Valarian]

Where there are rules, there will always be those who want to get the most out of the rules rather than the game. I think the problem with min-maxer players can be found in any game system. As can the monty-haul adventure.

[Griogre]

I have to say I agree with Valarian in general. But more specifically:

I am enlightened! lol. Even so I don't think it can be as bad as 3.5. But I may be wrong again.

The worst problems with min/maxing in 3.5, IMO, come from mixing and matching the various splat books and 3rd party rules with each other - and there a *lot* of splat books mostly developed in a vacuum where they didn't consider the implications of rules in other splat books (or don't know about them or just didn't care). Conceptionally, IMHO, if you play core rules plus one splat book you are usually ok (but not perfect) rules balance wise in D&D.

If you agree this is more or less true for 3.5 then you can see that Savage Worlds might be a less abused system because their usual campaign game worlds tend to use a core SW + extra source book set of rules - and with this type of setup it's easier to see and modify power issues.

Even with all that, given there are basically two types of edges in SW:

1) Those that give you bennies (from RP or not).
2) Those that give a character some sort of advantage in the game.

Unless you believe that every edge in 2 above is exactly equal then there is going to be people who optimize characters acording to what they believe the best edges are.