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  1. #1

    Anyone sick of d20?

    I was never much of a d20 fan to begin with but now I'm just getting sick of it.There are so many other great systems out there that is actually focused on roleplaying then combat. When I go to my local gaming store its all d20 and it drives me nuts. Also I don't like the type of players it attracts where i'm at. I only get a bunch of power players and they don't care about roleplaying-only about getting to a prestige class. I dunno... is it just me lol.

  2. #2
    Sorontar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Manchester UK
    I don't think the system is to blame tbh it's the people you are playing with/around. You'll always come across people who want to be uber and the best, doing the most damage and generally kicking arse.

    In AD&D they were the people who thought that if a fighter didn't 18 (90+) strength they'd bin them as a failure.

    Put them in a Vampire game and they'll still be the same, looking for the max out of a build.

    Rollplayers not roleplayers.

    Either look for like minded people in your locale (stick a flyer up in the RP stores stating what you want and if needs must offer to run a game) or I'm sure another wonderful soul will pipe up after me.

  3. #3
    I have to agree with kyxmma, the D20 system is bringing a new wave of gamers, and this wave is 90% about minmaxing. I know that people have always minmaxed in previous systems, but it just got crazy with D20. Although I don't think its the people as much as it is the system itself. With so many publishers capitalizing on the product, there are so many things like AEG books out there, it almost forces the player to minmax just to survive the game.

    But as a DM I have to say, you will not find any minmaxing in my games. I am known to kill minmaxed characters with a quickness.

  4. #4


    I agree with you. The players in my area that has only played d20 are all about minmaxing and way beyond anything I have experienced playing classic games. They already pick there prestige class before the campaign begins and that is there main focus. They actually pick there presitge class even before there core class. I try to sway them away from thinking that way so I switched to savage worlds or gurps where it is skill based and they don't like it because-and this is what they told me, there are no prestige classes. Obviously I dropped them and started playing with a group with the average age of 35 and i've been enjoying it alot better. They don't care what system as long as it is a good story and thats what I like. But the d20 group in my area just did not care about the story, they just cared about how powerful they can get and what equipment. It makes me worried about the new generation of gamers coming lol.

  5. #5
    I've been a DM and GM'd other system for almost three decades. I don't particularly care how a player manipulates their character (min/maxing is not unique to d20 by any stretch of the imagination) as long as they roleplay!

    One of the best roleplayers I've ever DM'd for is also one of the most notorious min/maxers I have ever seen, but when he's playing his character you'd never know it. It is also a comfort to be able to perform a "signature maneuver" (combat or other action) without the dice getting in the way and that usually involves some manner of min/maxing.

    In my games, a rollplayer inevitably does something stupid, which generally gets them killed without any malicious act on my part as the DM. Sometimes a roleplayer plays their character too well (min/maxed or not) and roleplays themselves into a fatal situation. In the later case, when they create a new character I give them some kind of bonus as a reward for roleplaying so well.

    Find a roleplayer and he or she will elevate the roleplaying in an entire group as long as the rollplayer(s) don't have VGS (Video Gamer Syndrome). VGS players don't have the patience for true roleplaying as they've gamed on computers and haven't developed the social skills for good old-fashioned D&D (or Vampire or GURPS or T&T or Rolemaster or ... you get the picture).

  6. #6
    Sigurd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Ontario, Canada

    D20 is a lot of work but its just a vehicle

    I am not happy with all the work DMing D20 entails.
    I don't like the way the game seems to get bigger than any 6 game books real fast.
    I don't know if these issues are game design or the length of times publishers have had to expand the rules.

    Its a lot of work, but its just a vehicle for your game simulation. Changing rules systems won't change your players - just give them different strings to pull.

    J.R.R. Tolkien wrote, "I wish life was not so short. Languages take such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."

  7. #7


    True. D20 does take more preparation then other games. Also lets say in GURPS I can make npc up an easily(I'll just say all of his neccessary skills are a 10 for example), but in d20 its a little tougher because there's the certain amount of hp he has for his level plus skills points for his level, and picking feats and etc... it almost forces me to create all possible npc's ahead of time. But in GURPS all I have to say is ok his health is 10, and so are his primary skills for on the fly npc's. Also I think d20 creates wonderful sourcebooks but damn i'm going broke buying them lol. But I have to admit I love brining my stack of books to a game :-). My favorite system is a tie between savage worlds or ubiquity system because they are both simple yet there is a decent amount of character customization. Also you can't be a power player in those systems.

  8. #8
    Valarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Worcestershire, UK
    I like the d20 system ... but I must say I don't play D&D very often. I prefer the variant systems that are around, especially those that separate to-hit and armour with the Defence and Damage Reduction mechanism. I also like the ones that limit the hit points, allowing for a grittier game. Currently, I'm with Mongoose's OGL for d20 play ... theirs are the changes I like the best.
    Using Ultimate license - that means anyone can play.
    Valarian's Fantasy Grounds Rulesets

  9. #9
    Oberoten's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Älvsbyn, Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by kyxmma
    I was never much of a d20 fan to begin with but now I'm just getting sick of it.There are so many other great systems out there that is actually focused on roleplaying then combat. When I go to my local gaming store its all d20 and it drives me nuts. Also I don't like the type of players it attracts where i'm at. I only get a bunch of power players and they don't care about roleplaying-only about getting to a prestige class. I dunno... is it just me lol.

    Yeah, I even know of GOOD roleplpayer beeing kicked out of some groups due to not beeing good enough on picking their prestige-classes...
    For your Ars Magica needs :

    Atque in perpetuum frater, Ave atque vale.

  10. #10
    Xorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Helena, MT
    I'm going to sound elitist no matter how I say this, so just apply that filter to everything below, because I'm not trying to be a douche bag.

    Whenever I go to a game shop and I'm flipping through a rulebook or chatting up the guy behind the counter, invariably someone will hear me talking about... whatever we're talking about... and decide to serenade me with the details of their campaign. I listen, actively, but I know what's coming:

    We all have epic golden dragon mounts... after we killed the third king at fifth level... my rogue has two +8 whosawhatsits of vorpal slaying--a whosawhatsit? That's a rapier/shortsword combined, it's considered a light weapon for my dual wielding and only needs one weapon focus, it's aweshome! *slurp*

    Then it's apparent, I'm talking to a min-maxxer. I don't think it's his fault though--his buddies are min-maxxers, and his DM is either a power-munchkin himself, or at least encourages their playstyle. If it's the difference between a game on Saturday or playing MMOs (and I like MMOs) I'll go for the substandard game--I'll play MMOs the other 6 days.

    The part that gets me is then it's my turn to talk after a lot of "coooool"s, "oooh sahweet!"s and various considerate offered appreciations for someone that seems to be really enjoying telling us about his game. So then it's my turn, and I talk about my current game.

    Nah, party is 3rd level. They've got three magic items between them, and one is a wand of cure light wounds. Well they're currently in a small mining town, trying to free the townsfolk that have been caught up by a kobold tribe that took over the mine and flooded into the city. The kobolds are cute till you're up against a dozen of them, with commanders on dire weasels, then they get pretty nasty! If they don't get the people out of the town in 24 hours, a sieging human army will crush the walls to the ground, and kill anyone still alive.

    Thing is, I notice this guy is on the edge of his seat. He asks if there's any spots in my campaign. What? You'd rather be a 3rd level guy that finds packs of kobolds a challenge? What happened to the golden epic dragon mount and the whosawhatsits?

    I think it's just a responsibility of existing players and DMs to bring fresh meat into the fold of D&D with the right guiding arm.

    I think 3.5 did appeal to the munchkin, but I played Vampire for years, and everytime you see a Brujah punker, you just assume it's a munchkin (that's the local lingo for a min-maxxer) and plan accordingly. In a LARP setting, assume anything you say will be responded to with, "I burn a blood trait for Celerity and I'm Brawny enough to smash your face in..."

    Do I think that munchkins are good or bad for the game? Well if everyone is having fun riding their golden dragon epic mounts and swinging whosawhatsits at whosyerdaddies, then no--have fun. Just stop talking to me at the hobby shop, please.

    Final point--I really don't think d20 is responsible for this (outside of being the first TRPG); munchkins exist in every rules format. One of my long-running players was a munchkin--everything he played, the numbers came before the story. (That's a true munchkin, to me.) I killed him off, a lot--usually not intentionally, but there was that time that I rolled a die behind my screen and said, "A meteor roars out of the sky and hits you in the head for (I made a spectacle of rolling all my dice over the map) that much damage."

    "A meteor!?"

    "Yeah. Weird, huh?" We were playing OD&D at the time, as I had hoped he would find less ways to munchkinize his play.

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