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View Poll Results: Story Entries vs Refman

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  • Story Entries

    22 68.75%
  • Refman

    10 31.25%
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  1. #11
    I'm also in the camp that VASTLY preferred Story Entries over ref manuals FOR ADVENTURES/CAMPAIGNS especially. Map location pins with story entries is superior for DM/GM flow (in my humble opinion). Not only that, but the entries were SO MUCH SHORTER compared to the modern (5E) Ref Man with one page just being SWATHS of text. It is so much more parseable (no pun intended) when the text is broken into relevant, smaller chunks. And pinned to the maps (when applicable). Just my 2 cents.

    We can get features added to the ref man all day, but unless it works exactly how Story Entries used to work for adventure readability, it will never be the same.
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  2. #12
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remedeez View Post
    I'm also in the camp that VASTLY preferred Story Entries over ref manuals FOR ADVENTURES/CAMPAIGNS especially. Map location pins with story entries is superior for DM/GM flow (in my humble opinion). Not only that, but the entries were SO MUCH SHORTER compared to the modern (5E) Ref Man with one page just being SWATHS of text. It is so much more parseable (no pun intended) when the text is broken into relevant, smaller chunks. And pinned to the maps (when applicable). Just my 2 cents.

    We can get features added to the ref man all day, but unless it works exactly how Story Entries used to work for adventure readability, it will never be the same.
    As ddavison says in his post above you need to look at the adventures which have been produced recently (Golden Keys and Dragonlance). None of the other adventures have a reference manual which is really all that suitable for adventure play; they were incorporated as a sort of extra so that DMs could read the adventure as if it were a book. The more recent adventures have a reference manual which is completely suitable for running the adventure; the maps have pins to each entry and each entry has the text for that room or location and all of the encounters, parcels, images and anything else are linked to that entry. So the recent reference manual are exactly the same as you get with the story entries in older modules. The main pain points that have been mentioned are being addressed as ddavison mentions in his post above as well.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featu...rerequests.php

  3. #13
    Do you have an example of a reference manual entry from an adventure that is much more complex?
    What about it is cumbersome? Dual columns? Inline images?
    How much data is in a page? (Should be the same for adventures in general...)

    Maybe there are some adjustments we can make longer term...

    Thanks,
    JPG

  4. #14
    It is hard to give examples when the modules in question have no story entries to compare the offending refmans to. If we provide an example using older modules, you tell us to focus on only the ones that have no story entries.

    I owned both Dragonlance and Key to the Golden Vault (I have since returned both) and even tried to run Keys using the refman and I abhorred every minute of it. You have acknowledged that refman still needs work. It is not what we had but yet you took away the system that actually worked for most of us, before making sure it was up to the task and acceptable to a majority of your paying clients.

    Now, we are left without the tool we were all accustomed to, left waiting until you get the new tool there?!

    Doesn't seem right, does it?
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  5. #15
    ddavison's Avatar
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    The new feature set is fully capable of running the adventure and is capable of doing more than the old method. Designs often move forward and some people will always prefer an older method, even if it is more limited.

    If you provide an example of something in the new reference manuals that you don’t like, that will be useful feedback. If you provide an example of something from an earlier version of the reference manual as an example, then we aren’t talking about the same thing anymore.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ddavison View Post
    The new feature set is fully capable of running the adventure and is capable of doing more than the old method. Designs often move forward and some people will always prefer an older method, even if it is more limited.

    If you provide an example of something in the new reference manuals that you don’t like, that will be useful feedback. If you provide an example of something from an earlier version of the reference manual as an example, then we aren’t talking about the same thing anymore.
    Anything can be considered capable, Alot of people consider Roll20 capable. You took away what most DM's came to expect from your product and gave them a very nicely formatted pdf... Great Job Dave. As your clients we are telling you it's not better, it could be, but it's not there yet. I like change, I like progress but I'm not about taking off the tires on my car because they are all going to fly one day.

    Only people I see in the side of the refman currently are ones that you pay or are creating content. That is not to say it may be great one day, but today isnt that day. shame too.
    The Skeletons in my closet...
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  7. #17
    ddavison's Avatar
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    Keeping fidelity to a book does not equal a PDF. Ref pages are linked to map shortcuts. Images are visible without following a link, but are openable directly. Content is organized in chapters and sub chapters without having to prefix every title with an alphanumeric code, and content like tables and stat blocks is now styled to make sections more readable when you have things like call outs. You can unlock and edit content, insert or remove content, and reorganize content easily. Most of the examples I read from users who disliked reference manuals were from earlier iterations that existed before we could do any of these things.

    Story entries are like running an adventure in notepad with links added. Did you try actually using the reference manual builder and/or creating and editing content in the new modules before you returned them?

    My name is Doug, BTW.

  8. #18
    I am well aware of your name d...Dav...ison. keeping fidelity is the actual purpose of a PDF. Nearly everything you listed can be done in a PDF. The rest benefits you. saves your team time, saves you money. It doesn't save the DMs, your clients time, money or effort. Stylized sections, pretty. doesn't save time, I could unlock and edit story entries before. Still no improvement. I could re-organize entries before still no improvement. I returned them 2 weeks ago. So far this is what your people including yourself have had to say...

    Maybe there are some adjustments we can make longer term...

    pain points that have been mentioned are being addressed...

    Changes coming soon in TEST build for Reference Manual Pages:
    New minimum window size that matches the minimum size for Story entries
    Copy Ref Page Link to Clipboard
    Duplicate Ref Page from Clipboard
    Revert a single ref page if edited from a store bought module
    We can repush old ref manual products so they are not read only (for adventures at least, but possibly for everything once the on page revert is an option)

    Other changes we're considering for the future releases:
    Shrinking the window size for reference manual and pages will stack 2-column layouts on top of each other so they are both visible
    Shrinking the window size for reference manual and pages will shrink images to fit into the new width
    Create Story Entry for Ref Page
    Reference Page/Manual Sidebar navigation

    The downsides of refmanuals is that the page size is bigger; and there's no quick way to open them from the side bar.

    We've always wanted to make the FG modules look and feel like the books; rather than a wall of unformatted text with a bunch of links. It's only now that we've been able to do so.

    Stories as a whole are not reference manual pages. There are pros and cons for each.

    Yes, the size can be an issue. The current reason is that there is no clear logic to change image size to fit the pane. The size fits the minimum width for images currently. That is high on the list.

    It's not a mute point for sure as we are investigating more ways to make it more streamlined. So it's not being finalized in it's current state.


    My favorite one tho
    Agreed.PNG

    You fixed all that in a night? because you posted it yesterday, the day before?

    Oh yeah, you asked if I tried it running a game... I already answered that, Dave.

    In the end as long as you are making/saving money what does it matter if you customers are displeased with it? Right?
    The Skeletons in my closet...
    ...take half damage from piercing weapons.

  9. #19
    LordEntrails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haavok View Post
    I am well aware of your name d...Dav...ison.
    <snip>
    I already answered that, Dave.
    Please BE POLITE. This type of behavior makes you come across as the undesirable. You will not win an argument or persuade anyone on this forum to your view with this type of behavior.

    If you can not be polite, please give yourself a day or two time out. So that moderators do not have to.

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  10. #20
    ddavison's Avatar
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    We receive refund requests from time to time on various products. At this time, you are the only request for a refund for Keys out of 220 on our website. That represents 0.45% return rate and is very good actually. Not everyone will like our design decisions. We will take constructive criticism into consideration, but we will ignore negativity.

    You have been rude in your feedback to our content creators and moderators and now to me. You are not winning anyone over with your approach.

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