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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wizard View Post
    Just curious, why are you setting tokens to always invisible at the lowest level? Why wouldn't tokens set to "invisible" be considered as non-visible, non-selectable by players? How can a GM hide player tokens completely without being able to set to invisible?

    I'm thinking maybe the issue is that you are using the "always invisible" setting to mimic "invisibility"; which was not the intent of the "always invisible" flag for a token. It sounds more like the display is somewhat inconsistent at the moment (which should be tokens/widgets are all on/off and selectable or not, which is definitely an issue).

    I would want to discuss with @pindercarl about the ramifications of any changes, as well as what the feature was originally designed for (i.e. hide tokens with always invisible token states from all player clients, period).

    While I appreciate any thoughts you have on your particular usage needs; I'd also like you step back and think about overall long-term needs for potentially making player tokens actually "invisible" to all players, including the token "owner".

    Regards,
    JPG
    Not really sure what your talking about here. If a map token from the CT is set manually to invisible - or using the CT to set it to invisible - or even my carrier setting to set it to invisible - it is all the same. Token is not visible.

    An owned token is never "invisible" to its owner as they are the ones actually moving it around visible or not (visually to the other players etc.). Its how things work. Currently the bug I'm talking about is when these tokens are not visible they can only be selected by the health bar or widgets on the token. This is new and not good.

    I have zero understanding about what you are talking about in terms of "always invisible" or "invisible" as their is only one setting - the token is seen or not seen - which has nothing to do with the controller needing to operate with it.

    [Post edit: Out of curiosity - what use would it ever be to have an owner of a token (be it NPC, PC, or any other map token) not having it seen by them? You'd just make them not the owner if you wanted them not to see "their owned stuff" but I see no actual use for that. Or if there is it must be a very little used thing compared to the normal use of the token visibility to date. Talking about tectonic shifts in how you handle visibility in tokens seems radical indeed. As tokens seen by owners but not anyone else but the GM is a requirement IMHO - and how it used to function. Still does if you look at the health bar and widgets as places to select it - and of course its still seen even now with this bug. ]
    Last edited by SilentRuin; March 27th, 2023 at 20:03.
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  2. #12
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    I think what Moon Wizard is asking is why don't you just add the invisible effect to the PC rather than making their token actually invisible.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

  3. #13
    Gist is this is a horrible mistake taking the ability (which we had) to have only owners see their tokens and noone else.

    I worry that changes in FGU keep getting made that take more and more functionality away from the platform... to do what? I for sure don't understand the current "we know best" with no consultation of your user base and how they use it. I know for a fact I'm not the only one that lets their players go invisible and move around by setting their visibility setting.

    Taking that away (among other things of late) keeps making FGU less capable than it was in the name of something. I look at the recent removal of CT global entry buttons in the name of "lag" where instead of making it solve 99.9% of the problem by limiting how many it would work with you simply took out the whole capability making it less useful that it was before.

    If you keep changing things to take out things we could do before because you know best - then this is going to be a wonderful boon for the competition.
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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zacchaeus View Post
    I think what Moon Wizard is asking is why don't you just add the invisible effect to the PC rather than making their token actually invisible.
    You'll have to explain what token setting this is in the code that makes the token visible to the player but not to the other players. As that's a new one for me. I'm only aware of the one.
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  5. #15
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentRuin View Post
    You'll have to explain what token setting this is in the code that makes the token visible to the player but not to the other players. As that's a new one for me. I'm only aware of the one.
    The token remains visible at all times to everyone. All that happens is you or the player creates an effect of 'invisible' in the actions tab and applies it to their character. This will automatically apply any advantage/disadvantage for attacks for and against that player.

    I also don't think things are being taken away. As I think both pindercarl and Moon Wizard have pointed out this is likely a bug which will get fixed in due course.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zacchaeus View Post
    The token remains visible at all times to everyone. All that happens is you or the player creates an effect of 'invisible' in the actions tab and applies it to their character. This will automatically apply any advantage/disadvantage for attacks for and against that player.

    I also don't think things are being taken away. As I think both pindercarl and Moon Wizard have pointed out this is likely a bug which will get fixed in due course.
    Pindercal said it would be fixed - Moon Wizard said that they could even STILL effect the the token with the heal bar and widgets or see it at all was the problem. Telling me the token remains visible to all - is what I'm complaining about. We had the power to make it only visible and operable to the owner of the map token - now? Moon wizard said he thought it should never have even done that and that is the bug.

    I can read his reply no other way - how are you reading that differently?
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  7. #17
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Well I read what Moon Wizard as saying was that if you made a token invisible then it was just that - invisible to all players; but not obviously to the DM. I think the issue might be that player tokens shouldn't get set to Always Invisible - and that might be the bug that needs to be addressed. In other words if this worked for you at some point then it shouldn't have - that's the bug. Having said that I've never used the always invisible thing for tokens, so I'm guessing as to what the correct intention was or is. If I had an NPC that was invisible I've just used the eye icon on the CT; or applied an invisible effect so that players could still target the creature.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zacchaeus View Post
    Well I read what Moon Wizard as saying was that if you made a token invisible then it was just that - invisible to all players; but not obviously to the DM. I think the issue might be that player tokens shouldn't get set to Always Invisible - and that might be the bug that needs to be addressed. In other words if this worked for you at some point then it shouldn't have - that's the bug. Having said that I've never used the always invisible thing for tokens, so I'm guessing as to what the correct intention was or is. If I had an NPC that was invisible I've just used the eye icon on the CT; or applied an invisible effect so that players could still target the creature.
    Then you know that is a tectonic change of behavior with tokens that disable many uses many use that invisibility has been used for for years. You are saying - we used to have the ability for a map token (ANY map token stop centering on just PCs) to be visible only to owners when it was marked invisible. Always been this way. Many use it this way.

    You guys coming along and saying you'll take the ability to have an owned token visible only to themselves and not other non owners except them GM - an ability - a powerful ability - we've had for years?

    Screw this decent into "Father knows best" crap. Don't screw with functionality that has worked one way and is used that way without replacing that functionality so that its not lost.

    Right now I'm hearing "you need this that we've always provided?". Too bad - the mood has struck us to change it. Based on complaints? No. Based on requests? No. Just because we know that making the app do less because we don't see a need for it is better.

    Yes, I'm ticked off at this. I was ticked off that the group CT settings were removed before but didn't immediately complain though others did. But this?

    This is a trend. And making the token not visible or operable - or having something new that does this in right mouse or token settings - is just so totally wrong that its a game changer for me personally.
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  9. #19
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Sorry, I'm confused now. You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token (although the DM can still do so) and which I confirmed was the case; similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player (but again the DM can). As a DM I can set any NPC token to always invisible and it will be invisible to clients but I can still see and operate that token. So nothing has changed as far as that goes. As I say I've never set a player token to always invisible (except to test when I saw your initial post) so I don't know what the expected behaviour of doing that is.

    I guess the best course of action is to wait and see what pindercarl and Moon Wizard come up with one way or another.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zacchaeus View Post
    Sorry, I'm confused now. You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token (although the DM can still do so) and which I confirmed was the case; similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player (but again the DM can). As a DM I can set any NPC token to always invisible and it will be invisible to clients but I can still see and operate that token. So nothing has changed as far as that goes. As I say I've never set a player token to always invisible (except to test when I saw your initial post) so I don't know what the expected behaviour of doing that is.

    I guess the best course of action is to wait and see what pindercarl and Moon Wizard come up with one way or another.

    You're original post was about PC tokens and if you set them to invisible then the player couldn't select or move the token
    With the caveat that you could always do this since I've been in the game - 3 years - and that the health bar and widgets could still be used for the owner of the map token to drag it around. You know setting players invisible so they could sneak around the others and nobody sees them. Or other non generic extension based things I use in my game every single session.

    similarly any player controlled NPCs set to always invisible can't be controlled by the player
    In who's world? Not mine. My players can control any faction - any NPC - even only NPCs that they want. Called extensions. But extensions don't change the basic engine abilities with tokens. Which are that an owned token is still seen and controllable by the client. For all the years I've been involved with FGU.

    Pindercarl saw the problem - stated outright owned tokens should work - as they should - and it would be fixed.

    Then Moon came in and said essentially - you know what? We've been always supporting this - but I don't see a need for it so lets not.

    And no mention about how they plan to keep supporting that functionality we've had all these years.

    This is not the first time. Its a trend of if we give you power to help you play the game - we can take it away on whim. No people asked this be done. No people requested it be done. In fact, I asked it be fixed to work the way it always had. And now?

    Don't even try to defend it. Its wrong. I use this ability in every single session baring a few in the games I've been playing the last few years. But you don't use it? See no need for it? Lets take it away then.

    I'm done here. This is just pissing me off further and I need to cool down.
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