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  1. #1

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    SWADE Chase Range

    Chase in SWADE is more broken.

    There was a work-around where the GM would set distance multiplier to a decimal value to calculate chase distance more or less accurately, like 1.7 to calculate a range of 5 per card.
    That work-around is no longer workable.

    The range now shows raw range, even when "show raw distance" is toggled off.
    The diagonal distance option also makes no difference.

    This changed recently, and is in the current release version, as well as the test channel.
    This makes chases unusable.

    Here's a screen shot. It's very zoomed in to show the tiny number. The number should be a legible "5".
    broken chase.jpg

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Confirmed
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  3. #3
    I would not say it is more broken. Without seeing evidence of an even older issue. However lets discuss the current situation.

    Not conviced that this is a new issue. For due diligence have tested in Prev branch. Lets break it down into smaller bits to get clarity: I have set a grid set to 1.7 per square. Which means a card incerment is now going to be 5.1. Note the numbers given for card incerment is just a suggestion so people could use intergers and dodge the whole problem. Especially if they look at weapon range bands for a better number. However lets all agree to use 1.7 for now. At this point in my test the chase button has not been set to on. Cards have be laid down but chase rules switched off. Here is the result:

    1. The "show raw distance" does not seem to have any effect outside of chases. Does the setting even work in SWADE outside of chases?
    2. Use the mouse to simply draw an arrow and display length. Measured distances are always shown to one decimal place.

    When the chase button is pushed repeat:

    1. The "show raw distance" does not seem to have any effect.
    2. Use the mouse to simply draw an arrow and display length. Measured distances are always shown to mutiple decimal places in a tiny font.

    Questions:

    1. Does the The "show raw distance" check mark work at all?
    2. Why is range not shown the same number of decimal places when chase mode engaged?

    The chase button should make all measurements count orthogonally (no diagonals). Without changing the display properties.
    Last edited by Lonewolf; February 28th, 2023 at 13:48.
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  4. #4

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    I say more broken because it was somewhat broken previously.
    Here's my argument for why chase was already broken (again).

    The fact that I have to divide normal chase increments by 3 is crazy. The distances never come out to whole numbers. There should be no rounding happening.
    While in chase mode, each card / chase position should measure as the distance multiplier. The chase range increment should be the distance multiplier.
    That's the point of the case mode. What's the purpose of having that button if it just does weird fractional calculations? You could not use chase, put down cards, set distance to 5 (25/50), and move one square at a time.
    Having to calculate and enter odd distances so ranges come out close to accurate is broken. (And not as close when doing starship fights.)

    Regularly in starship fights the range bumps over into the next increment due to rounding, or counting the cards should put it in medium range, but fractional calculations put it into long. I have to move tokens for rolls or hand update totals in those cases. It means every roll is watched and checked, which slows down chase scenes. I consider that broken.

    There was a time when I would set the distance multiplier to 5 (or 25 or 50) and it would calculate the distance properly. It worked just like on the table top.

    Sorry for the grumpiness. This is a real thorn in the side for our games, and I sometimes avoid the chase rules (and entire chase scenes) because of it. I don't do starship chases at all at this point.

    To answer the questions:
    Here's chase turned off and show raw distance on. It's the same when raw distance is turned off.
    dist mult chase off.jpg

    Here's the chase turned on and show raw distance off. It's the same when was distance is toggled on.
    dist mult chase on.jpg

    No, toggling raw distance makes no difference, either in or out of chase.

    The only thing working is the orthogonal measurement.

    I think this counts as more broken.
    Last edited by Mike Serfass; March 1st, 2023 at 02:35.

  5. #5
    It is broken and has been for some time. It makes no semse having a Chase mode that makes more work for the GM. The old Doswelk Chase video haa none of this weird work around finagling.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Serfass View Post
    I say more broken because it was somewhat broken previously. Here's my argument for why chase was already broken (again). The fact that I have to divide normal chase increments by 3 is crazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiminimonka View Post
    It is broken and has been for some time. It makes no semse having a Chase mode that makes more work for the GM. The old Doswelk Chase video haa none of this weird work around finagling.
    We simply could not place place more that one token in the same square when setting up a Dogfight card layout. From the very first day the chase rules came out the solution was to divide the suggested chase increments by 3. The word suggested which is written in italics comes directly out of the game chase rules. So the method used is a completely intentional design feature guided by game rules. It's a old compromise and not a new bug. The very first tutorial video made by Savage Doswelk years ago explained this limitation.

    Debates on chase rules or token stacking are futile here. Any point of view is build on the assumption that rounding featues work. The real problem is that does not seem to be the case. So based on how it is supposed to work. Here is once again the problems at hand.

    1. The show raw distance check mark in map controls does not appear to function under SWADE. Both inside and outside of a chase. So the question for the developer is how is this core rules function being disabled?

    2. Calculations are displayed to a diffrent number of decimal places when chase button is used. So standard rounding is being bypassed when switching on chase rules to count orthogonally. So the question for the developer is how a core rules rounding function being bypassed?

    It is two bugs and a feature request. If the original token stacking limit fix can be removed that is great but right now a ruler that works is what is needed. I know people are not satisfied by the whole original solution to SWADE case rules. I can sympathize with the objections raised. Ikael came up with the best solution available at the time. Have linked to the original training video which helps explain how we got here. The general consensus is right now SWADE has some non-functional map tools that need fixed before we get futher into the weeds on this one.
    Last edited by Lonewolf; March 1st, 2023 at 09:43.
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  7. #7
    So, I was just watching the @Doswelk video; and the behaviors that he showcased all appear to be working as noted in that video in the current SW ruleset version.

    For @Lonewolf's specific callouts,

    1) The raw calculation and the adjustments to units and suffix work correctly; however, there is a bug that the the targeting arrows do not update immediately on change of those parameters. I'll open a ticket for that one.

    2) There is an override in the ruleset for how measurements are calculated, which is how the ability to override the default target measurement is even possible in the chase scenarios. Since the measurement is being overriden, the Savage Worlds chase measurement code is responsible for returning the number to be displayed, not the client. This ruleset is currently in maintenance mode given that the developer has been unavailable, and we are working hard to keep it up to date with the latest CoreRPG changes. If I have a few minutes, I'll look to see how easy it is to change the chase code to not need divide by 3 and apply rounding; but no guarantees as it's not code that I wrote.

    I'm not sure why there is a claim that the tools are now "non-functional", as they appear to work as they were originally created a few years ago.

    Regards,
    JPG

  8. #8
    Took a quick look at the measurement code in SW.

    * I don't see any way in the current code to differentiate between foot chase vs. dogfight; there's just a find "nearest chase card" function. So, the current chase code does not provide any mechanism to know whether a given chase setup is foot chase or dogfight, so I won't be able to do anything about divide by 3 requirement.

    * I think I was able to add the rounding for the chase calculations to keep the scientific notation from displaying; but you still have the divide 3 scenario for dogfight setups as noted above. I've added to the version currently in the Test/beta channel.

    Regards,
    JPG

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wizard View Post
    Took a quick look at the measurement code in SW.
    * I don't see any way in the current code to differentiate between foot chase vs. dogfight; there's just a find "nearest chase card" function. So, the current chase code does not provide any mechanism to know whether a given chase setup is foot chase or dogfight, so I won't be able to do anything about divide by 3 requirement.
    The trick here is using the same a find "nearest chase card" function for both. Whilst telling the GM to alter the card spacing. It is GM setup that makes the difference. Standard chases overlap card areas reducing the distance between those cards. Dogfights don't overlap cards and so use the full chase card size of nine squares. The same solution therefore works for both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wizard View Post
    * I think I was able to add the rounding for the chase calculations to keep the scientific notation from displaying; but you still have the divide 3 scenario for dogfight setups as noted above
    Stopping scientific notation from displaying is all that is required for the chase system to work as intended. So long as the display is rounding to one decimal place it works just fine.

    People might still complain or get confused by the Dogfight setup dividing increments written in book by 3. However, it gives nine squares to get passed token stacking. Unless there is a fundamental change that allows multiple tokens to share the same square. I can’t see us ever getting rid of the dividing by 3 setups.

    The only area of that might still cause concern is this. The show raw distance tick mark still has no functional use in SWADE. Distance will now always round off to one decimal place regardless of how show raw distance has been set. Although it does not appear to do anything. I don’t see this as a significant issue. I am not aware of a use case that depends on show raw distance being set differently in SWADE.

    It appears chases are fixed. I know people are going to still hate the divide by 3 set up but it there for a reason and it is explained in the tutorial.
    Last edited by Lonewolf; March 5th, 2023 at 01:30.
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  10. #10

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    Thank you for addressing this, Moon Wizard.
    It's not easy maintaining someone else's code for a system you don't play.
    It's appreciated.

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