STAR TREK 2d20
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  1. #1
    wndrngdru's Avatar
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    Why I Don't Play Cypher in FG: Some (hopefully) Constructive Feedback

    First, I want it to be known that I really do appreciate the work that has been put into the Cypher rulesets. I really really want to like and use them. Unfortunately, I just don't. I've played multiple games as both GM and Player and the quirks outweigh the benefits of the ruleset for me. Teaching new players how to play Cypher as well as how to use FG, and then tacking on the quirks of the ruleset becomes a bit much, especially for a one-shot. (I do use The Strange ruleset, though, because the recursion-swapping function is super handy in a Strange campaign.)

    Lately, I've been doing a lot of one-shots for people so it's just easier for me to do theater of the mind in a Discord channel with a dice roller bot and fillable PDF sheets. I really would like to use FG though.

    Here are my main issues with the ruleset(s):
    1. Assets are only provided as "permanent" fields to nearly each and every thing on the character sheet, however, these can (and usually do) change for every single roll. Currently, there is no way to add assets to a single roll. You have to add them to a skill or ability, roll, and then hopefully remember to clear the asset after rolling. Take the case where an Ability gives you an Asset to a roll, plus a character is also aiding you (giving you a second asset). There's no way to add that second asset without changing that field in the Ability itself. Assets can often be provided by items but, again, there's no way to add that to a roll without using the above-mentioned skill kludge.
    2. The damage track is explicitly tied to the number of Stat Pools that have been reduced to zero. This does not follow the rules as written. The damage track is a separate thing from the stat pools and a character can be moved down the Damage Track via poison, magic, or other special ability, with or without stat pool reduction. This means a character who finds themself Debilitated by a poison that moved them 2 spots down the Damage Track can be killed outright by only reducing one of their stat pools to zero. This use case cannot be handled on the character sheet the way it currently works.
    3. The way the target levels (the numbers in the circles after a roll) work in the roll evaluation end up confusing me more than they help. This is because of the way Training, Assets, and Effort are applied in the Cypher System. More on that below and it's not a deal-breaker at this point, just something I have to mentally shift when playing in FG versus playing at a table or over Discord.


    Here's what would fix the current ruleset(s) to be more usable for me and probably even have me recommend them to others.
    • Make the Stat scores rollable via double-click. It's kind of weird for me that they aren't. I have to make an Untrained skill entry for that stat as a workaround.
    • Change the "Edge" bonus box down near the dice to "Assets". I'm not sure what the Edge box is for. It doesn't seem to do anything and Edge is always tied to a particular stat.
    • Disentangle the Damage Track from the Stat Pools such that a character can be moved down the track manually, per the rules. Bonus for having a stat pool dropping to zero move it further down the track, or vice-versa when bringing a pool back above zero.

    These three things would make the character sheet immensely more usable for me even before entering skills, abilities, items, etc.

    Now the whipped topping wish...
    My dream ruleset would pretty much require a redesign of the way the rolling works. In the Cypher System, Skills, Effort, and Assets don't add to the die roll. They instead reduce the Task Difficulty (analogous to D&D's DC). If you are well-trained and expend enough effort and assets, it's possible to reduce the Task Difficulty to zero. This means no roll is needed and automatically succeeds. This is actually what players are going for - to not have to roll - because rolling dice is dangerous.
    In the end, the math works out the way the current rulesets work because adding one side of the equation is the same as subtracting from the other side. Some might say I'm being pedantic, but it comes down to a fundamental shift in how you look at the roll. The GM will still need to do the TD reduction math to be able to tell the player if a roll is even needed. After doing that, the GM is probably thinking of the smaller target number, but the roll result gives the succeeded at TD number as if the training, effort, and assets were added to the roll. The GM needs to now remember what the original Task Difficulty was to make use of the nifty indicator in the roll result. This would often throw me for a loop where I would think somebody succeeded on a roll when they actually didn't. I finally stopped even using the indicator and now just compare the die roll to the reduced target number in my head.

    For example (true story):
    • GM (me) calls for a Might roll and determines the a Task Difficulty of 5
    • Player is using a skill they are trained in (eases the Task by 1). Task Difficulty is now 4
    • Player is also using an item that provides an asset, and is aided by another character (easing the Task by 2 more). Task Difficulty is now 2
    • Player also spends one level of effort (eases the Task by 1 more) TD is now just 1
    • The player now needs to roll a 3 (TD x 3) or better on their d20 roll, but only rolls a 2.
    • GM is thinking TD of 1 in their head. FG returns that the roll succeeded on a TD of 4 because all the assets, effort, and skills were added to the roll result.
    • GM says the player succeeded when, in fact, they failed the roll.

    I know implementing something like this would take a bunch of development time so I'm really only throwing out ideas here. Here's one possible way for it to maybe work...

    GM requests a player make a roll by perhaps clicking something on that player's CT entry or portrait. This pops up a window on the GM's screen asking for the target level of the roll. The GM could optionally make this target number visible to the player as some abilities make this knowable. (This target number could be also taken from a creature the character has targeted with the option for the GM to adjust it due to it being benefitted/hindered in some way.)
    The player also receives a pop up where they can add any assets or levels of effort as well as requesting a change to the stat being rolled on (many abilities can change which stat can be rolled on, if desired). There would be a nice big "Roll" button which would start all the behind-the-scenes math. The assets and levels of effort are subtracted from the target number and the result is multiplied by 3, giving the number needed on the d20 roll. The roll is made if the target number is at least 1, with any bonuses added (there can be bonuses added to or subtracted from the roll as well). Result is evaluated, displayed, etc. Thinking further, I can see that a popup window on both sides may needlessly complicate things, but some sort of GM input would be needed in any case. Obviously, I don't have all the details figured out and am just brainstorming stuff at this point.

    Anyway, I'm really only looking for my first two pain points to be remedied (I'm aware of at least 2 other FG Cypher users with these same issues). The rest is just dreamy fluff. Thanks for your time and thoughts.
    --
    I'm so bassic

  2. #2
    Unfortunately, the Numenera ruleset was built based on the original Numenera book by me as a prototype back when Numenera was released. One of the other community members briefly stepped in to add Cypher general support, plus The Strange specific support. However, we have never gotten an official license from MCG (and we've asked multiple times), so it does not have an assigned developer to make additions to the ruleset at this time.

    I welcome if anyone who would like to contribute to the ruleset, or take it over. Unfortunately, I do not have the bandwidth to work on rulesets without official publisher support at this time.

    I will continue to attempt to support the ruleset for bug fixes and making it work with CoreRPG updates.

    Regards,
    JPG

  3. #3
    I think addressing your first two items should not take too much work (I'm the developer Moon's referencing above), I'll see if I can get them done somewhat quickly. I'll think about the rolling mechanism you described. As you say, it needs to be flexible, but also not cumbersome, but I'll see what can be done.

    I'm the one who added the Effort and Edge controls on the desktop, and I can't for the life of me figure out why I thought an Edge box was needed. I found one ability in the Numenera rules (Agile Wit) that lets you use a different Edge than what you're rolling, but it seems to be a real edge-case. However, changing that to Assets makes total sense.
    Last edited by darrenan; September 19th, 2022 at 16:57.

  4. #4
    P.S. Thank you for taking the time for providing such a detailed post on the ruleset shortcomings and suggestions for improvement. I played a little Cypher/Numenera/The Strange but I'm certainly not as experienced with the system as some others here, so I appreciate it.

  5. #5
    If I make the stat controls rollable, is there any need at that point for the roll button and the associated 'Def' label? A stat roll is just a stat roll, regardless of what it's for, right?

  6. #6
    wndrngdru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darrenan View Post
    If I make the stat controls rollable, is there any need at that point for the roll button and the associated 'Def' label? A stat roll is just a stat roll, regardless of what it's for, right?
    The only thing with Defense rolls is that you can be Trained/Specialized in them, so you'd need some way of indicating that and having it apply. It could be done with a Skill roll but, personally, I don't mind the separate boxes for those. The Asset box wouldn't be needed if that is moved to the box below.

    EDIT: Keeping the bonus boxes might be good too. I can't think of any off the top of my head but there could be an ability that adds to a defense roll.
    Last edited by wndrngdru; September 19th, 2022 at 18:04.
    --
    I'm so bassic

  7. #7
    I'll just leave them as-is for now then. Thanks.

  8. #8
    HI!!! I've been using the Numenera core rules myself, love the setting and the Cypher system. MCG always wants people around the table to sit and play so they don't give licenses out to VTTs - M. Cooke has a dislike for them. RPGs are meant to be in-person, like Invisible Sun. From my rumored-Asset Team "intell", they even have a limited license to Roll20 still.

    I agree with wndrngdru above. I think I ran a game for him on Founder's Day 2022.
    I have been working slllllooowly on some updates, but admittedly am not a computer programmer guy. I teach political science, law, biology, and cannabis - a strange combo but that's the work these days. The [x] and / commands still confuse me on blogs like this.

    I've been trying to build through .lua on what little free time I have and only learned how to change the color and some words of text so far. I would like to see a Drag-and-Drop feature added into the ruleset!
    When an enemy/NPC is damaged or healed, the damage does not automatically apply to the combat tracker. I cannot add the damage or heal onto the prior or current damage on the CT. Nor does any number from the text box to the CT or sheets. I have to make a separate list of damage to NPCs to total in the CT. Is there a way to add that too, please?

    Quote Originally Posted by wndrngdru View Post
    First, I want it to be known that I really do appreciate the work that has been put into the Cypher rulesets.
    Strongly Agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by wndrngdru View Post
    Here are my main issues with the ruleset(s):
    [LIST=1][*]Assets are only provided as "permanent" fields to nearly each and every thing ... You have to add them to a skill or ability, roll, and then hopefully remember to clear the asset after rolling.
    It is livable for me, but would be nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by wndrngdru View Post
    Here's what would fix the current ruleset(s) to be more usable for me and probably even have me recommend them to others.
    [LIST][*]Make the Stat scores rollable via double-click. It's kind of weird for me that they aren't. I have to make an Untrained skill entry for that stat as a workaround.[*]Change the "Edge" bonus box down near the dice to "Assets". I'm not sure what the Edge box is for. It doesn't seem to do anything and Edge is always tied to a particular stat.
    Yes to both! This is what I have been trying to do with my slow .lua self-learning

    Quote Originally Posted by wndrngdru View Post
    GM requests a player make a roll by perhaps clicking something on that player's CT entry or portrait....
    Interesting way to think about that. I hope we can at least get the first two and a drag-and-drop feature like the D&D CT.

    If I can help in any way, please let me know. I have been pushing MCG since 2020 to support VTTs as the pandemic hurt, and now big gun D&D-whatever is making RPGs an online community instead of the tabletop. They are not just against FG, it's a strong "in-person" policy.

    The Savage Worlds rule set has a damage track as well - shaken then three wounds - that is not tied to anything like stat pools. Could it be the same code language to put that into the damage track of Cypher? I don't know if that is just a copy-paste; I am the last person on the plant to know anything but telling a story. darrenan and Moon Wizard, I would love to run a game for the two of you sometime!
    Last edited by Poe the Homunculus; September 20th, 2022 at 05:42.
    The beginning of any story is a happy accident; the end, a tragic fate.

  9. #9
    When you say a Drag and Drop feature, I assume you're talking about being able to drag character types, descriptors, and focuses onto the character sheet? Or did you have something else in mind?

  10. #10
    P.S. Someone needs to get it through Monte's thick skull that not everyone has the option of playing in person.

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