OSE Ruleset Feedback/Bugs Support thread

[bayne7400]

Yeah that was a mistake bud thanks for the feedback.

[Tuirgin]

Terrific... glad to see OSE getting support. FWIW I'm a software tester/QA automation "engineer" in my day job. So, apologies if my reports and responses get overly detailed. It's force of habit at this point. Or I'm just a verbose SOB.

[bayne7400]

Oh yeah I am not going anywhere. I continue to make improvements to the ruleset as time permits. I still want to add a turn tracker that integrates with the CT and a few more quality of Life items.

[Axe]

Howdy! Thanks for the updates.

I updated 02/04/2022.

Only OSE AF Player's Tome and OSE AF Referee's Tome loaded.

Items, Groups, seems to have one too many groups ("Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy Player's Tome"). This group only has "wine" in it. Items appear to be in "Old School Essentials Advanced Players Tome".

When building a new character, AC remains at "0" (zero) instead of "9", which is great for Magic Users. When a character is given (unequipped) armor and it appears in the Inventory, AC correctly changes to "9". When the Armor is equipped, the AC does change to the correct number.


Just a few notes.

[bayne7400]

So when you make a character as soon as you add any item to the inventory it updates the AC. Ill investigate the behavior and next update address it. I added a backpack and the AC values updated. It probably has to do with the window not initializing when you first pop open the character sheet but not a major deal since most adventurers carry at least one item

Wine was created as uncategorized and was exported in its own category. Next time the Tome is updated we will fix it. thanks!

[bayne7400]

Howdy! Thanks for the updates.


When building a new character, AC remains at "0" (zero) instead of "9", which is great for Magic Users. When a character is given (unequipped) armor and it appears in the Inventory, AC correctly changes to "9". When the Armor is equipped, the AC does change to the correct number.


Just a few notes.

OK figured it out. The gnomes I enslaved to bring you this ruleset set the initial AC value. They are sleeping until something is added (any item) to the inventory. Now when you create a character they awaken and set your AC to its default value (which should be 12 (9 -3) until your dex is set.)

[Dire Weasel]

Another couple of errors from running my game last night. If needed I can try to find steps to reproduce.

[2/7/2022 9:10:40 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "scripts/manager_action_attack.lua"]:128: attempt to compare nil with number
[2/7/2022 9:22:25 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "round"]:52: attempt to compare number with nil
[2/7/2022 9:25:42 PM] [ERROR] Script execution error: [string "round"]:52: attempt to compare number with nil

[bayne7400]

I am going to need some help with the first one. What level and thaco was PC and what monster did they attack? Was it targeted? Any other details would be helpful. I cannot reproduce the error.

The last two are turn tracker related me thinks.

Second one is fixed. Something is going on with default values reverting in FG. When it pulled the value if no value is there it sets it to 0. Should have coded it like this to begin with.

[bayne7400]

Although I couldn't not reproduce it. I did see a potential bug where if the ac was somehow greater than 12 it could throw a nil value. So I fixed that. Since the error was one time and went away I am going toc all it solved.

[Tuirgin]

Here are a couple wishes for the NPC records:

• Configurable option to roll HP by HD for each NPC in an encounter. The key here is making the stats less predictable and "samey".
• A way to indicate attack patterns for an NPC without having to switch to the notes tab or—quite frequently—go beyond the NPC record to read the Referee Tome. This is definitely the bigger issue because the information simply isn't easy to get at with the provided NPC records.

I apologize in advance, but I'm donning my QA pocket protector now to go into probably entirely too much detail in support of my findings and recommendations.

Attack Patterns and Number of Attacks as Represented by the NPC Record

Gavin's statblock conventions makes it really simple to see what's going on. So much so that when I was helping edit/reorganize the content for another VTT's OGL OSE implementation I ended up just including the entire statblock in notes in addition to setting up the mechanical attack patterns. Sometimes a single line of text is just easier to read:

• Black Dragon: Att [2 × claw (1d4 + 1), 1 × bite (2d10)] or breath
• Chimera: Att 2 × claw (1d3), goat: 1 × gore (2d4), lion: 1 × bite (2d4), dragon: 1 × bite (3d4) or 1 × breath (3d6)
• Manticore: Att [2 × claw (1d4), 1 × bite (2d4)] or 6 × tail spike (1d6)

Let's look at the Manticore. The weapons list from the NPC out of the Referee Tome looks like this:

Weapon	ATK	DMG
2 x claw	0	1d4
1 x bite	0	2d4
6 x tail spike	0	1d6

There's no indication of how these attacks are organized from the Main tab, and unfortunately the Notes tab has no useful information on attack patterns, either:

Monstrosities with the face of a man, the body of a lion, bat-like wings, and a tail bristling with spikes. Love eating humans.

Dwell in wild, mountainous regions.

Tail spikes:

180’ range. 24 in total; 2 regrow each day.

Track and ambush:

Follow humans and attack with tail spikes when they stop to rest.

So now I go to the Reference Manual and search "manticore" and I get a hit called "M and N". Crap... all the monsters for M–N are in a single page without any ability to "find in page"... scroll down... thankfully it happens to be the second record, and now I can see that it's got:

Att [2 × claw (1d4), 1 × bite (2d4)] or 6 × tail spike (1d6)

Okay... so now I know that it's either 2 x claw and 1 x bite OR it's 6x tail spikes. Let's attack with the tail... click a bunch of times... I think I clicked 6 times...

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [8]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [4]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-4]

"Is that 6?" Counting... "Nope... only 5." Clicking again.

6 x tail spike[NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [1]

Alternatively, I could have this for weapons:

Weapon	ATK	DMG
(Att 1) Claw #1	0	1d4
(Att 1) Claw #2	0	1d4
(Att 1) Bite	0	2d4
(Att 2) Tail spike #1	0	1d6
(Att 2) Tail spike #2	0	1d6
(Att 2) Tail spike #3	0	1d6
(Att 2) Tail spike #4	0	1d6
(Att 2) Tail spike #5	0	1d6
(Att 2) Tail spike #6	0	1d6

And this would give me the following in the chat log:

(Att 2) Tail spike #1 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [8]

(Att 2) Tail spike #2 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [4]

(Att 2) Tail spike #3 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

(Att 2) Tail spike #4 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-6]

(Att 2) Tail spike #5 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [-4]

(Att 2) Tail spike #6 [NPC] [THACO 13] Attack
Attacker Hits an AC of [1]

The gains here:

• Nomenclature matches the mechanics; i.e. the chat log will show the weapon and the number of attack rather than repeatedly showing "2 x claw" or "6 x tail spike". This makes it easier to sanity check results.
• Attack patterns are apparent at a glance.

The obvious drawbacks here:

• More attacks in a confined space—it might look really congested and be hard to see what's available.
• Scrolling to click each of the tail spike instances rather than spamming a button.
• Attack routines are defined via non-enforced convention.
• Monsters are already "done" for the Ref tome... nobody wants to go and edit them all.

Information is the Bigger Issue

The difficulty of discovering the information is a bigger issue than the mechanical representation. If I could quickly see Gavin's statblock I wouldn't really care too much about the rest. But the info simply isn't available in the NPC record and getting to it from the Reference Manual isn't fast, involving 5 clicks and some skimming. In the case of the Manticore, it's actually faster to search Gavin's SRD website. However, that won't help with Advanced monsters, and the Advanced monsters are the ones people will be less familiar with, anyway, since they're not just Moldvay monsters with the possibility of a slightly different name.

All of the following monsters have more than one attack listed within the OSE AF Monsters book. Some of these simply have multiple attacks and no alternate attack pattern. Others do have one or more alternate attack patterns. It simply isn't possible to tell what the monsters' attack patterns are by looking at most of these NPC records. Again, note that these are only Advanced monsters.

Ankheg, Banshee, Bulette, Catoblepas, Deep One, Demonic Knight, Multichromatic Dragon (different attack pattern than other dragons), Dragonne, Drider, Efreeti, Eye of Terror, Eye of the Deep, Giant Electric Eel, Giant Mutant Frog, Ghast, Ghost, Gibbering Mouther, Iron Golem, Gorilla, Gullygug, Black and Sea Hags, Hulker, Jackalwere, Krell, Flame Lizard, Monitor Lizard, Malfyr, Mantid, Merrow, Mind Lasher, Nightmare, Otyugh, Phoenix, Pseudo-Dragon, Rakshasa, Roper, Sahuagin, Satyr, Scorpionoid, Sea Serpent, Giant Slug, Snake Person, Spawn of the Worm, Sphinx, Tarrasque, Titan, Giant Wasp, Winter Wolf, Xorn.

I would argue that having quick access to the stat block is essential unless the entire attack pattern is captured either mechanically or through descriptive convention within the NPC record. As it is I'm going to have to take the time to specially prep each monster I'm going to use for a session to reduce cognitive friction during game time, and that does somewhat diminish the value of having stock NPC records already built for me.

The following is a summary of my own personal values/priorities, but hopefully it's useful information.

• Ideal would be having the entire statblock in the notes tab AND the attack pattern documented either mechanically or through descriptive convention. No clicks required if there are no questions. (Optional single click to get to Notes to check details.)
• Second best would be to leave the attacks alone and add the statblock to Notes. (Mandatory single click to get to Notes and learn the attack details.)
• Third best would be including a link in the Notes tab to the specific monster entry in the Referee Tome. This would require reorganizing the Referee Tome so that each monster has it's own record. (One click to get to Notes, and a 2nd click to get to the monster entry.)
• Fourth best would be including the link to the record which includes the monster entry without it actually being split into it's own record. (Click the link then scroll and skim. 2 clicks and a scrolling scan for the monster.)
• Fifth best would be record per monster and having to search the Referee Tome for the monster. (1. Click on Modules; 2. Click on Referee Tome; 3. Click on Reference Manual; 4. Click into the search field; 5. Scan for the relevant match and click it.)
• Sixth best is what we have now: All the steps of the "fifth best" option plus the added step of scrolling through the record to find the specific monster details I'm looking for. (5 clicks plus scanning for the right info twice.)

Don't be fooled by the volume of my feedback. The OSE ruleset is a big part of what drew me back to FG after having gradually cut my ties to several different VTTs in favor of Google Sheets character sheets and using a VTT merely for dice rolling and handouts. I'm looking forward to what OSE2 can do for me and my groups.