18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[Jiminimonka]

You can't, because Apple mandates any web browser on iOS has to use WebKit (for security, they claim). The net result of which is that Chrome and Firefox are using the Apple/Safari libraries behind the scenes, and therefore also do not work with either Roll20 or Foundry.

(Sorry missed that someone had already posted this).

Anyway, the net result is that the promise of browser-based VTTs that they will run on anything is illusory at the present time. They may work on other mobile platforms, but we've just discovered today that Foundry on Forge-VTT actually doesn't work on Safari or Firefox for the Mac. You need to use Chrome. So actually you're just as tied to installing software as you are for Fantasy Grounds, and it doesn't run on Apple mobile either.

Cheers, Hywel

People have to install a browser!!!

[similarly]

I've had players who've refused to use FGU because they don't want to download a client and don't want to mess with an account. Now, when I advertise a game, I mention that they need a computer and internet that can handle FGU, and we've had fewer problems. A lot of it is just finding a group whose expectations are satisfied by the client.

[Weissrolf]

Mobile accessibility is an interesting one. As someone who is Apple-based (for sound reasons in my actual business), Foundry no more accessible on mobile for me than FGU is. Roll20 doesn't work on an iPad either. Safari/Webkit isn't supported...

Settings -> Safari -> Advanced -> Experimental Features -> WebGL 2.0 -> Enable

[Weissrolf]

Yep. Unfortunately Carl Sagans fears about humanity have come true and this Installing software thing is hard for some people.

You are implying that installing FGU follows the standard procedure of installing any software, which it does *not*.

- Installation begins with a standard Windows installer until the point where it asks for the data directory path. Then the FGU Updater is used for further installation.

- First it asks for the data directory path again, rather confusing.

- Once the updater takes over the installation process changes to a 3D gaming engine. So any GPU issues you might be facing will happen before you even begin the main installation.

- Then you need to create an account and successfully log in. Contrary to other software this is not to run the installed software, but to even be able to install the software.

- The updater/installer seems to use a download mechanism that can be incompatble with internet connections using DS-Lite even when other web-installer work on the same connection.

- Next the software asks to change permissions to folders without explaining which and why. This is a dialog that no other software brings up and asking users for a leap of faith after the computer using world worked hard to teach normal users to not click on unknown dialogs that mess with security.

Nothing about this qualifies as a normal Windows installation procedure. Making fun of users who see this as a hurdle not worth jumping over seems unnecessary rude.

[Weissrolf]

Iphone 7:

202F4D62-8DD1-499C-BD68-44853F917124.png

[Mytherus]

You are implying that installing FGU follows the standard procedure of installing any software, which it does *not*.

- Installation begins with a standard Windows installer until the point where it asks for the data directory path. Then the FGU Updater is used for further installation.

- First it asks for the data directory path again, rather confusing.

- Once the updater takes over the installation process changes to a 3D gaming engine. So any GPU issues you might be facing will happen before you even begin the main installation.

- Then you need to create an account and successfully log in. Contrary to other software this is not to run the installed software, but to even be able to install the software.

- The updater/installer seems to use a download mechanism that can be incompatble with internet connections using DS-Lite even when other web-installer work on the same connection.

- Next the software asks to change permissions to folders without explaining which and why. This is a dialog that no other software brings up and asking users for a leap of faith after the computer using world worked hard to teach normal users to not click on unknown dialogs that mess with security.

Nothing about this qualifies as a normal Windows installation procedure. Making fun of users who see this as a hurdle not worth jumping over seems unnecessary rude.

Then don’t use it.

However I’ve never found a single player that I’ve ever invited to one of my games (recruited from the lfg forums here ) who found installing , running and updating fgu difficult in the least. With FG yes people had issues with port forwarding at times but you don’t have that issue with FGU.

I also don’t know what you are talking about regarding the install being non standard. I just did a re install fgu on my laptop after a windows update. It was just as straight forward as installing any other program. Change permissions on folders? Huh I didn’t touch permissions on folders. Incompatible download mechanism? You are reaching here. The updater changes to a 3d gaming engine. First you mean the gui. That throws you? And you name the fact you have to create an account?

Netflix. Battlement. Steam. Facebook. Bank. Credit card accounts. Etc etc. they all require accounts complaining about that is something I expect my 80 y/o father who was born in the 40s to rant about but in fairness I don’t know your age.

[Sulimo]

Settings -> Safari -> Advanced -> Experimental Features -> WebGL 2.0 -> Enable

I am not so sure the average user should need to go deep into what are essentially Beta settings to get something like a VTT to work.

Web Developers should be targeting WebKit if they want iOS/iPadOS users to use their services. Web developers should be testing against multiple browsers as well (we do), because not everyone is going to use the same browser.


It's even worse when you consider that Chromium (which is what Chrome uses) is a fork of WebKit.

So, the dev has to be deliberately using protocols that only Chrome understands instead of universal Web protocols. This is exactly what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer, except when Google does it, it's somehow ok.

[MrDDT]

Then don’t use it.

However I’ve never found a single player that I’ve ever invited to one of my games (recruited from the lfg forums here ) who found installing , running and updating fgu difficult in the least. With FG yes people had issues with port forwarding at times but you don’t have that issue with FGU.

I also don’t know what you are talking about regarding the install being non standard. I just did a re install fgu on my laptop after a windows update. It was just as straight forward as installing any other program. Change permissions on folders? Huh I didn’t touch permissions on folders. Incompatible download mechanism? You are reaching here. The updater changes to a 3d gaming engine. First you mean the gui. That throws you? And you name the fact you have to create an account?

Netflix. Battlement. Steam. Facebook. Bank. Credit card accounts. Etc etc. they all require accounts complaining about that is something I expect my 80 y/o father who was born in the 40s to rant about but in fairness I don’t know your age.

Blindly ignoring the issues doesn't fix them just FYI.

If you can't see that opening a browser vs downloading/installing a program on a computer is a lot harder, I'm not sure what to tell you. Maybe your limited exp with people who know how to use computers thus never ran into these problems or something else. I've dealt with 100s of people playing FGC and FGU vs Roll20, and I can tell you there are a lot of issues with installing a game vs playing it from a browser (starting standpoint not talking about use after it's up and running).

Having said that, I don't think it needs to be as easy as a browser game at start. However, if all other things are equal, the download/install version would be much less wanted.
I also think there is a large group of people that want access to VTT via mobile device and there are very limited ways for that to work for FGU, while browser is a lot easier to do this.
Does that mean I want FGU to go this route? No, I do not. I like its download/install. To me I end up with a lot more committed people playing D&D than fly by night people on Roll20. But I can see the want for it.

[Weissrolf]

However I’ve never found a single player that I’ve ever invited to one of my games (recruited from the lfg forums here ) who found installing , running and updating fgu difficult in the least. With FG yes people had issues with port forwarding at times but you don’t have that issue with FGU.

That's nice, but I am reporting feedback from various players and my decade long experience as an IT support and consulting guy. You don't have to like it, but ranting about feedback being given doesn't change the facts. And this here is a comparison thread, so don't cry out when comparisons are given.

Tribalism is funny, I am being disparaged in both communities for stating comparison facs and oppinions about the other respective VTT system. On the dedicated PF2 Foundry Discord one of the developers once wrote: "Weissrolf was bragging about FG automation here" when I in fact was trying to have a discussion about Foundry PF2 automation and quite naturally used FG for comparison. Everyone wants to see (read) what they want to see in defence of their limited world-views and no one likes users/customers who look over the edge of the plate.

[Weissrolf]

I am not so sure the average user should need to go deep into what are essentially Beta settings to get something like a VTT to work.

Which Apple's lack of interest for standards that they cannot control/monetize is to blame for, not Foundry. To be fair, though, Foundry does not try to be a tablet based VTT, it just comes along as non-supported possibility due to web-technology being used. So it's not a full "pro" point of Foundry, rather a nice to have.

So one of my players being able to use a tablet when his desktop was not available was a welcome workaround, but for prolongued use he rather fixed the desktop PC and his Fire tablet kept crashing (he suspect background audio to be the culprit).

Web Developers should be targeting WebKit if they want iOS/iPadOS users to use their services. Web developers should be testing against multiple browsers as well (we do), because not everyone is going to use the same browser.

WebGL (Web Graphics Library) is a JavaScript API for rendering high-performance interactive 3D and 2D graphics within any compatible web browser without the use of plug-ins. WebGL does so by introducing an API that closely conforms to OpenGL... Support for WebGL is present in Firefox 4+, Google Chrome 9+, Opera 12+, Safari 5.1+, Internet Explorer 11+, and Microsoft Edge.

The WebGL 2 API introduces support for much of the OpenGL ES 3.0 feature set.

Asking Foundry developers not to use current WebGL standards is like asking Fantasy Grounds to go back to Classic and forget about the whole LOS/lighting stuff.