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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Milmoor View Post
    I respectfully disagree. It's not the humans, it's the table, GM and players. Sure, some exotic races are better in certain circumstances, but on average, variant humans are rather good. If all the dungeons have low ceilings, everyone will play a small race. What is the standing of elves in your society? Do you have combats in plain sight, etc. Try to vary both combat and social circumstances, and other races will be a valid choice as well.
    Maybe I should do first a survey to my players to see which races they would consider in the next campaign.

    For sure if they say again 100% 5 elves and/or half-elves I will change something!


    The environment is still TORIL/FAERUN and the modules/campaigns are the official ones from WOTC. Probably next one will be Dungeon of The Mad Mage or Princes of Apocalypse.

    And we use all the expansions such as Xanathar, Tasha, Mordenkainen and Volo.


    Why I still have the feeling that human variants, even with the feats, are underpowered.....

    Am I missing something?

    Btw my party is heavily on powerplay not much on RP, at least this is the style with RL friends, we are playing a bit as the old days when we were young with BECMI or AD&D 2nd edition!
    Neuronblaster GM on warhorn.net

  2. #22
    Game style is very important. Some interesting reading here: https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theo...ls/blacow.html

    But... vary your combat in practise before you ask your players what they would want in theory, and the answers what they want will change. They are now happy with what they have, so they won't change unless you buy the change by providing large boosts or if you show then they are lacking certain things. Like climbing its strength, not dexterity. If they are elves, chances are they don't have a strength based fighter or paledin.
    Last edited by Milmoor; May 12th, 2021 at 18:02.

  3. #23
    As a DM, I try not to get to involved with what the players want to play. If there is something that doesn't make sense for the campaign I will just drop it prior to generation so they know not to consider it in the first place, but I don't do that very often. I really just don't care what they are playing because the characters are more a player's responsibility. So long as it is in the rules why should I care what they want to play.

    My job is to create fun and robust adventures that people enjoy. If they want to power game and super optimize their characters, cool, I can do the same with encounters if I want. It is my job to figure out what the players are about and work with that. Customize your encounters and have them use tactics.

    If you try and force players into your box you'll just end up with unhappy players. If darkvision is a must have no realistic modification to human or variants is likely to change their opinion. You could give humans an auto +2 to every stat but then you are trading a minor advantage like dark vision for a stat heavy potential superman (especially if die rolling characteristics). I think you would be better not worrying about game mods because it doesn't seem like it is likely to change their position without creating another problem for you down the road.

  4. #24

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  6. #26
    Wise comments. I will start harassing my players with the negative side of darkvision and see what happens.

    Till now we played like for 5 years with darkvision considered as normal vision and that was a mistake for sure.


    Still I am not convinced of the human variant. With the options in TASHAS, human variant is not strong as before. He should have at least +2/+1 and a feat instead of +1/+1 and a feat
    Neuronblaster GM on warhorn.net

  7. #27
    You might want to talk this over with the players first. If you suddenly start changing things that has been true for five years, people can get annoyed.

  8. #28
    Thanks I will talk with my players.

    I came up with the idea, if the players accept, to give the following options and using POINT BUY system:

    - NON human: 27 points
    - Human variant: 33 points

    No standard human allowed.

    No customizing origin allowed for NON HUMANS, so no Mountain Dwarves wizards....

    This should push my players to play more humans with some exceptions.

    Or in alternative dice rolling:

    - NON humans: 4d6 discard lowest for 6 times.
    - Humans variants: 4d6 discard lowest for 6 times, always rerolling 1. Do this for 5 series (so 5 sets of stats) and choose the one you want from the 5.

    It could simulate the abundance of humans around.

    As it is now humans PCs are extinct in my campaigns as they were dinosaurs.

    Neuronblaster GM on warhorn.net

  9. #29
    To reiterate some earlier comments I consider the variants humans to be the most powerful choice in the game. So many great builds that revolve around a first-level feat that are vastly less effective when you have delay the "real" beginning of the build until 4th level. To each their own - if your players value darkvision above all else my suggestion is just to let them play what they enjoy. Boosting humans with a result of having an all human party that rolls over opponents is just trading one issue for another. By the same token going out of your way to punish an all-Darkvision party doesn't seem to have much fun connected to the concept. Sure, throwing in some situations where the DISADV on perception checks, or not seeing colours, can come into play adds a twist to the game but it's not something that should dominate things.

    Another to look at it: if you banned elves and they went all dwarves would you then ban dwarves? If the players like a "no torches" party why not just let them do that?

    Regardless, as long the end result is that you and the players have fun, there's no wrong way to play the game.

  10. #30
    Punishment is indeed a bad motivator. I tried to think of positive encouragement, but that's hard. The group painted themselves in a corner. I would use the correct perception rules and have a few opponents use anti darkvision tactics. But otherwise, it's up to the players. You could try a short humas only in between campaign, to get them out of their corner. Present them with lots of things they can solve because they have different resources now.

    Run the same challenge multiple times perhaps? Once for the normal even party, once for humans, once for kobolds, etc. Each run gives them part of a magic key to break the time loop. Make the loop a surprise and give them prefab characters for this.
    Last edited by Milmoor; May 13th, 2021 at 17:28.

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