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  1. #11
    LordEntrails's Avatar
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    I think of it this way, just because a PLAYER can see a creature, doesn't mean that the rules at the table mean that the CHARACTER can act on that creature.

    They way it was, even a creature in half cover could not even be seen by the character, or player. Yet the rules clearly state that in such a case the player and character should be able to target such a creature. Heck, the rules even state that a player should be aware of invisible creatures that their character may not know the location of.

    There is lots of metagame knowledge that players have and must use responsibly, to insure everyone has fun at the table.

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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperclipkiller View Post
    I'll be honest it doesn't seem like a bug/issue to me. It being more accurate (at least for 5e) is a good thing. The way it was before was technically an issue since it wasn't as accurate. Heck, even right now it should reveal *more*, since the source of vision should technically be the entire square and not just the center. However that's not possible with a points based lighting system. Adding additional sources on the corners would be beneficial, however sometimes a token is partially in the wall and thus would be able to see through it. Plus the Large Tokens and bigger not having proper LoS if their vision is based on the center of their token and not center+corners.

    Now a solution for that could be that the corner sources would only be active when the center source can see them. However I have no idea how LoS is coded and if that would be possible with the current system.

    In your above exactly with the guy walking down a hallway and seeing the Huge token, in the old system the Medium token wouldn't even see it until it was basically in the room. That's an issue. With this update, this fixed that issue.
    I posted this elsewhere (cos this is now a double thread) but if the token colours could be turned off (the red tile for enemies) then the token would not be visible - the red part of the square is what give away the position.

    The other, easier, solution is to hide the token until the players are right on the corner.

  3. #13
    If the way it is working at the moment is Centre to Any Corner, I'd actually be hoping for a change in the opposite direction, as per the 5e rules, and push for Any Corner to Any Corner. But without doubt the best result would be to have a togglable option of Centre to Centre, Centre to Any Corner or Any Corner to Any Corner as this would please most everyone I think?

    Cheers,

    Simon

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludd_G View Post
    If the way it is working at the moment is Centre to Any Corner, I'd actually be hoping for a change in the opposite direction, as per the 5e rules, and push for Any Corner to Any Corner. But without doubt the best result would be to have a togglable option of Centre to Centre, Centre to Any Corner or Any Corner to Any Corner as this would please most everyone I think?

    Cheers,

    Simon
    Corner to Corner only would introduce a different kind of problem. Doors that are smaller then the token. While not a big issue for Medium sized tokens, it would be for Large+. Plus then if a token was partially in a wall, it could see anything inside.

    With that said, a toggle for various versions of LoS would be nice if it could be implemented. However that means if there were LoS changes later, all iterations may need to be changed for an update.

    Simple LoS: Center to Center.

    Intermediate LoS: Center to Corners/Corner to Corner

    Advanced LoS: Center and Corner to Center and Corners. Within own token, if Center can't see its own Corners, those Corners LoS capabilities are disabled to prevent seeing through a wall. When those Corners are disabled, other creatures also cannot see those Corners. This would be to prevent seeing Tokens that are partially in walls.
    Last edited by Paperclipkiller; November 25th, 2020 at 18:09.

  5. #15
    Now that I think about it... If a token is partially in a wall, can another token on the other side of that wall see it now with this update? That could potentially be an issue with this update, and I can't check it currently.

  6. #16
    Although if we stick with Centre to Any Corner, there will be problems with reciprocal LoS not working correctly for larger creatures, no? I think both sides need to be measured from the same point (Centre to Centre or Corner to Corner) but I could be envisioning it wrong?

  7. #17
    That's an issue with this new current version yeah. It's why I really want the Advanced LoS I described. But I know that won't be feasible for awhile at least.

    Having a toggle for the Basic and Intermediate ones I listed above in the mean time would be nice for that exact reason.

  8. #18
    Copied from the other thread started by OP:

    Every token has a "grid size" that denotes the footprint of the token on the map. This is independent of the displayed graphic size, which can actually be scaled independently. The colored box is what is called an underlay, that CoreRPG uses to show the "grid size" of the token. The grid size is what is used for all targeting and LoS calculations.

    In the examples shown above, while the "graphic" shown for a token is not within the LoS, the "grid size" or actual size of the token according to the game rules IS within the LoS. It is following the rules defined by the D&D systems. (i.e. official rules are any corner to any corner equals visible) Even if you were using physical minis at a physical tabletop, you would calculate LoS by drawing an imaginary line from corner to corner to grid squares determine visibility and cover (not the actual physical mini, which is smaller than the grid squares).

    This is working as intended and according to the rules as written by the D&D game designers.

    One of the challenges with changing this to something else is that it becomes very subjective and different for every user. Most people want to say some custom X% should be used instead, where that X% is different for every person. (5%, 10%, 25%, ...) Also, percentages are very expensive to calculate vs. point to point. More likely we would need to look at some sort of contracted point, but again, the amount is subjective, depending on the user.

    If you would like to "reduce" the visibility somehow, please put your thoughts into a feature request in my sig.

    Also, think of this as the creature moving around within it's space, and the source token is seeing bits and pieces. If it's hiding around a corner, that's a different story, and the target token should be hidden.

    Regards,
    JPG

  9. #19
    Ah, so the change was actually to Any Corner to Any Corner, as 5e RAW? That's good to know and is the way I would've hope for. Thank you.

    (is there anyway of using this info to automate cover calculations? Sorry for being greedy! )

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Wizard View Post
    Copied from the other thread started by OP:

    Every token has a "grid size" that denotes the footprint of the token on the map. This is independent of the displayed graphic size, which can actually be scaled independently. The colored box is what is called an underlay, that CoreRPG uses to show the "grid size" of the token. The grid size is what is used for all targeting and LoS calculations.

    In the examples shown above, while the "graphic" shown for a token is not within the LoS, the "grid size" or actual size of the token according to the game rules IS within the LoS. It is following the rules defined by the D&D systems. (i.e. official rules are any corner to any corner equals visible) Even if you were using physical minis at a physical tabletop, you would calculate LoS by drawing an imaginary line from corner to corner to grid squares determine visibility and cover (not the actual physical mini, which is smaller than the grid squares).

    This is working as intended and according to the rules as written by the D&D game designers.

    One of the challenges with changing this to something else is that it becomes very subjective and different for every user. Most people want to say some custom X% should be used instead, where that X% is different for every person. (5%, 10%, 25%, ...) Also, percentages are very expensive to calculate vs. point to point. More likely we would need to look at some sort of contracted point, but again, the amount is subjective, depending on the user.

    If you would like to "reduce" the visibility somehow, please put your thoughts into a feature request in my sig.

    Also, think of this as the creature moving around within it's space, and the source token is seeing bits and pieces. If it's hiding around a corner, that's a different story, and the target token should be hidden.

    Regards,
    JPG
    You already have the code for center to center and possibly center to corner. LOS is the biggest listed feature with FGU. I can submit a request, but I worry it will be lost in the shuffle and not addressed. If you can (fairly easily) allow a customizable toggle it would allow us to get the most out of LOS for us individually. It's great that it's "working as intended" as per rules, but on the tabletop a DM would likely not allow sight for the fractional examples I have shown. In this case, it's automated so there is little choice. I would hate to see this not addressed as for me it's a major step backward. I didn't like large tokens being difficult to see, but having so much sight makes simply positioning enemies in rooms impossible as the party can see them from a mile away. Most creatures are not hiding, so making everyone hidden is contrary to what LOS provides. Additionally, so many abilities are based off of sight that even if I hide a monster until it's within close proximity, it does not change the fact that characters 35' down a hallway between other people can see. To be really accurate, LOS should also take into account other tokens, which is does not. I am personally surprised so many of you prefer this over what was there before, if we don't speak up now this will be what we have going forward.

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