Fantay Grounds Unity: Crash while clicking Update or Settings

[Trenloe]

I have had FG Classics data folder in my dropbox for years with no problem. So unless Unity handles things differently I am pretty sure it will work alright.

I've seen this response from GMs before. Maybe you've just been lucky. Maybe you lost some data but you weren't actually aware. There have been many reported instances of cloud sync applications causing corrupt or missing data. As Lord Entrails mentioned, it is STRONGLY recommended you don't do this, continuing to do so is at your own risk. All it takes is for it to happen just once and you could lose your data from one session, or all of your recent GM prep... Seriously, don't do it!

[Weissrolf]

Of course responsible GMs make backups of their data on top of cloud services offering version histories.

My experience with Onedrive and Dropbox so far:

Onedrive seems to work fine, but trying to delete FG folders via Windows Explorer often causes errors (as if the data was still used even after FGU is closed). Usually it can be fixed by deleting the online/browser version. Onedrive is what I settled on for the time being and what I used the longest for FGC and FGU.

Dropbox also works, but I had instances where one player claimed that a character change (level up) from last session wasn't saved. That being said, it was the player with the weakest computer that often causes issues in FGU anyway and the other players were fine coming from the same session. And often my players are still confused about various UI things in FG. I keep all my WoW addons and configuration on Dropbox for years already, lately Curseforge claims that single addons have been "modified" on my side, even when they were not. So there may be something iffy going on with Dropbox. It's main advantage is that it can handle many tiny files better than all other cloud-service and offers to sync over LAN.

Overall I strongly disagree with Trenloe that we have been "lucky". From a technical point of view this is untenable and makes me suspicious of FG support just wanting to keep extra complications out of their way. I do absolutely understand that they do not want to deal with possible issues stemming from wrong cloud usage, but it's a bit like telling people to walk because cars are too dangerous. Educate about possible complications, don't tell people to not use modern technology at all.

The cloud folder still is a local folder like any other folder. During a gaming session FGU write to said folder while the cloud application only reads from it. Even if there would be a conflict during a session where a file is still locked for writing while the cloud tries to read then the files are synchronized later after the session. Cloud reads are non-exclusive, they do not block your files. FGU writes should be exclusive and file locking, but unfortunately that does not seem to be the case and as such is a limitation of FGU.

So what can go wrong in practice?

1. Software bugs: Like any piece of extra software running in the chain there always is the risk of software failures.

2. File conflicts with other computers running the same folder synchronization: You need to make sure that you do not run the same campaign server on two different computers at the same time. Cache files might also be affected, but frankly, those are temporary files that can easily be deleted and re-downloaded. Furthermore cloud services come with conflict management, usually by not overwriting files but renaming of of the two versions with the computer's name appended.

3. User error: Just ran a session on your laptop, everyone said goodbye in a bit of a hurry late at night and you quickly shut down the laptop? You absolutely must not forget to boot the laptop and allow for cloud sync to finish uploading all changes before switching to another computer using the same cloud. Else your late night changes are not fully uploaded and thus may leave the other computer(s) with a messed up mix of files. And of course the other computer then needs some time to index and download the changes. This is where Dropbox is fastest with many small files, but FG does not change many files anyway.

So extra complications? Yes! Systematic failure? No! Backup? Always the best idea!

[Trenloe]

Overall I strongly disagree with Trenloe that we have been "lucky". From a technical point of view this is untenable and makes me suspicious of FG support just wanting to keep extra complications out of their way.

And here we go again, in Weissrolf's limited experience he knows better...

The strong recommendation from SmiteWorks and the community members who have been supporting this product for years is do not use any active backup or cloud sync on your Fantasy Grounds data. There are multiple files which FG uses as live database files - reading and writing to these as and when needed, and it needs full access without any other process potentially interfering with that. Just like you shouldn't host MS SQL Server database files on DropBox (for example), you shouldn't have your live FG database files on similar cloud sync/active backup servers. Are you actually saying that SmiteWorks should develop Fantasy Grounds to do it's file handling differently and then support all of the possible ways other sync applications handle those files? That's going to lead to a less efficient application and a massive load on support. You can't expect FG to try to program for this and support a host of other third party applications - Microsoft and DropBox don't support this on their database/sync platforms - so let's be realistic about expectations shall we (for once).

@Weissrolf - you know this is SmiteWork's and the FG support community's strong recommendation based off years of experience. It isn't the first time you've tried to go against this recommendation based off your limited experience. Please don't suggest that other users should ignore this recommendation just because your isolated experience hasn't caused *you* any noticeable issues. Or, has it not? I see a few support threads on these forums where you and your players are experiencing issues - is it because you're using cloud sync on your data while playing? Is it because some of your players are using unsupported/less than minimum spec hardware? Is it because there is actually an issue with the software? It could be some or all of these things, but you're certainly not helping by going against recommendations that you're well aware of and your players using less than minimum spec platform (OS and/or hardware)...

[Weissrolf]

Are you actually saying that SmiteWorks should develop Fantasy Grounds to do it's file handling differently...

I was implying that SmitwWorks should do its file handling properly and apply file/data locks where necessary, just like any other database application out there.

and then support all of the possible ways other sync applications handle those files?

Not at all "all of the possible ways". Like I repeatedly wrote OneDrive and Dropbox do not perform any write operations or even lock files for read operations, so there are no conflicts. FG could (should) lock files for writing when it needs exclusive access, though.

That's going to lead to a less efficient application and a massive load on support. You can't expect FG to try to program for this and support a host of other third party applications - Microsoft and DropBox don't support this on their database/sync platforms - so let's be realistic about expectations shall we (for once).

Of course I can expect modern software to work on modern platforms that uses modern solutions. Just as I can expect to drive my car on a highway and drive faster than step speed. It may complicate things more than what were used to in the 1990th, welcome to the 2020 then!

@Weissrolf - you know this is SmiteWork's and the FG support community's strong recommendation based off years of experience.

If those years of experience have not lead to SW's FG software becoming more robust in modern computing environments then I put all the blame on FG for staying stuck in "20 years ago".

It isn't the first time you've tried to go against this recommendation based off your limited experience.

My general computing experience likely is broader than that of most people around here, maybe including you. My advice principles include to inform people of advantages and limitations of modern technology. There is various modern technology that I personally don't use (much), but cloud computing is not a niche product, it's the widely adopted mainstream that is meant to stay.

IBM pioneered file locking in 1963...

Please don't suggest that other users should ignore this recommendation just because your isolated experience hasn't caused *you* any noticeable issues.

At least I offer explanations and open debate instead of just saying "hush, don't do it".

...is it because you're using cloud sync on your data while playing?

Very unlikely, and if so then FG is to be blamed for not properly handling its critical files.

Is it because some of your players are using unsupported/less than minimum spec hardware?

Unity's minimum specs are rather obscene for how little changed compared to Classic. That being said, graceful error handling is part of good software.

... your players using less than minimum spec platform (OS and/or hardware)...

Your riding this horse to death does not help form an image of you paying attention to what was written. Read and understand again before throwing false blame and derailing the thread with off-topic accusations (again).

[Trenloe]

Your riding this horse to death does not help form an image of you paying attention to what was written.

Huh?!? It's the first time I've mentioned it. And this comment makes me laugh at your hypocrisy - I think you're the champion of riding things to death and not reading what's written around here - have a look at some of your previous threads for prime examples of that, my God you can go on and on and on...

As I mentioned in my thread above - Microsoft doesn't support any third party products directly accessing and manipulating their data files - for numerous reasons, a lot of which apply to Fantasy Grounds database files too. Microsoft have a lot more resources than Smiteworks. If any software company is going to do something like this they have to do it all or nothing, doing it "all" is unrealistic and a complete waste of resources (if it's even possible to support and maintain support for third party apps they have no control over), therefore for most companies (including SmiteWorks in this instance) the only realistic approach is that it has to be "nothing" - it's not supported and there have been numerous cases of it causing issue, so this is the safest approach for both SmiteWorks and users - don't do it! Many software companies with much more resources than SmiteWorks carry out this practice, it's very common in the software industry.

For others reading this thread - please don't take Weissrolf's "experience" onboard - he's either been lucky, or his methods of going against recommendations may have caused him issues that he either hasn't noticed or has put it down to something else. It is a known issue that running cloud sync/active backup applications against your live FG data can cause data corruption - which can lead to lost data, disrupted sessions and frustration all round. It's a strong recommendation not to do it - if you go ahead and ignore this recommendation, then you're doing so at your own risk.

Closing this thread as it's ran it's course.