Demoralize automation

[Pawn]

Hello all. I'm pretty new to both FG and PF2e.

Demoralize checks come up pretty frequently in battle and I'd like to speed them up by just automating it.

I know that currently skill rolls can't Target so you can't have it automated right now. But can you just flip who rolls with a custom spell attack and make one where the creature makes a save against your skill DC?

Basically, mathematically speaking, is there a difference between rolling a +7 intimidation check against the target's will DC and having the target make a will saving throw vs your 17 intimidation DC?

[MaxAstro]

Mathematically there is not, but I don't think there's anyway to make skill-based DCs at the moment, either.

[Willot]

yeah trip, disarm, tumble through, shove, grapple all have to be manually done atm. So hopefully soon. My players have discovered the magic of trip!

[Pawn]

Yes, but you can make a custom spell action with a set DC based off of you skill amount. So if you have a +9 intimidation you could make a custom action with a Flat 19 DC save to the enemy's Will

[Willot]

Yes, but you can make a custom spell action with a set DC based off of you skill amount. So if you have a +9 intimidation you could make a custom action with a Flat 19 DC save to the enemy's Will

Remember though the PC doesnt roll saves, the creature does.

Way it is now is, creature rolls d20+WILL vs a DC:19. Thats not how these checks work in PF

Way it needs to works is PC rolls d20 + Intimidation vs creature' WILL +10

Essentially all PC need 5 special attacks added to the attack section of the action tab, trip, disarm, tumble through, shove, grapple. Which all have the standard multi-attack setup (like normal weapons) but have no damage; instead they have the applicable Save DC + 10 and it just returns Crit succeed, succeed, fail, crit fail (and NPCs need this too)

Also a way of allow the PC to roll a skill against a save DC

[MaxAstro]

Oh, Pawn, that's fairly clever, I never thought of that. I'd be worried about forgetting to update the DC on level up, but still very clever.

[Willot]

Still dont see how? Can someone post a screen shot on how to do it?

I think mathematically doing backwards may not matter except it's possible certain penalties or bonuses may not be applied right in this backwards scenario. I would have to think on it.

[Pawn]

Howdy all! So I tossed this question out into the aether two months ago, and I figured I'd follow up a bit late to answer the question in case someone somehow stumbles upon this post later.

first up:

Basically, mathematically speaking, is there a difference between rolling a +7 intimidation check against the target's will DC and having the target make a will saving throw vs your 17 intimidation DC?

The answer a little unintuitively is actually yes! there is a mathematical difference between flipping the check and DC, 10% to be exact. The reason is two-fold. First, ties goes to the roller and second; and second, the base 10 that DC uses is below the median die result (D20's median roll is 10.5) so there's a higher chance of rolling above a 10 than below.

Let's use an example to illustrate. Let's say I have the aforementioned +7 intimidation, and my opponent has a +7 will. If i'm making a +7 check against his 17 DC, then I have to roll a 10 or higher which means I have a 55% success rate. If I instead flip it around and have my opponent make a +7 will save against my 17 intimidation DC, now they're the ones that have to roll a 10 or higher which means now they have the 55% success chance.



So with this in mind, in FantasyGrounds PF2E, even though it's currently impossible to make an automated roll against a DC, we can have a work around that's mathematically identical by making the creature make a saving throw versus our skill DC (with a bonus +2 to make the math work). Since FG only has Reflex, Fortitude and Will saving throws, this won't work for every skill action, but it will work for most of the combat related ones.

Originally, I set this up by making a new spell with a Flat DC of whatever my skill bonus with an added +2 to make the math work, but as @MaxAstro pointed out, this is a little clunky with level ups and with various bonuses flying in and out. I found it easier to just make a new spell class for the relevant stat that way I could make the spell class's spell ability and proficiency match the skill's. Here's an example for making some athletics automation:

Just set the Spell's ability to strength, match the proficiency to your skills and then put in the +2 into the misc bonus to make the math work. Then when you create the disarm spell make a cast action with a Reflex save vs your spell DC. (since disarm has MAP you'll also want to add a -5 and -10 version). Now it will auto scale when you level or increase your stat. If you rank up the proficiency you just need to match the Spell Class proficiency again and if you ever get an item bonus to the skill just put it in the item section.

Some Limitations:
For most situations this should serve you well, however there are some edge cases where it won't work 100%. The main one is that its no longer actually a skill action so anything that directly modifies a skill won't affect it. For example if you were attempting to demoralize an opponent without speaking its language by applying an Effect: (SKILL: -4 circumstance, intimidation); it wouldn't actually do anything, you would instead of to apply the effect: (DC: -4 circumstance) before rolling. Fortunately, all of the conditions that affect skill checks (Clumsy, enfeebled, stupefied) also affect DC's so those will apply as normal with no intervention.