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  1. #1

    Comparing D&D Editions and CRPG Discussion

    (Apologies if there is a better subsection to post this. Im posting it here based on discord feedback. Feel free to move it.)

    Im gonna do a bit of conflating crpg versions and table top simply due to my experience with them.
    I wanted to make a thread for discussing the different editions of D&D, how they compare/contrast, and possible applications of the rules.
    AD&D, 2e (2e is more or less a moderate revision of 1e), has some kind of special merit to it seems, since its been around since what the 80s? 20 years without massive overhauls. 1979-1999 is a long time for minor revisions. Why is that? Why did they need to move to 3e, and considering 3e revised to 3.5 in maybe 2 years, doesnt that mean 3.0 was a bit broken?
    4e seems to have gone a bit off the rails. Ive spent a bit of time playing the MMO Neverwinter, but Im not sure if it even remotely is accurate to 4e. I really like Forgotten Realms lore, and its free to play, so Ive spent some time playing it. Ive seen the comment 4e was almost itself mmo-ized. But I wonder if the Neverwinter mmo took that even further.

    What are Table Top veterans opinions on AD&D vs 3.x vs 4e vs 5e. Furthermore, for those of you whove played D&D based video games, how faithful do you think they are to their respective versions?
    My impression is that 5e is a modest or moderate revision of 3.5. Is this accurate?

    Having beaten Baldurs Gate and Siege of Dragonspear recently, Im impressed at how well the large-scale battles were handled. I do not know how much rules were fudged, or additional spell slots / ability slots were required for the npcs. Anyway, I can almost see how a strategy-ish AD&D rules game might work. Large battles, but the npcs fight individualistically more or less. Same would apply to 3.x and 5, (probably 4 as well.)

    Please feel free to comment on anything youd like. All comments welcome!

  2. #2
    The primary reason for AD&D to 3e was because D&D as a brand and system was on the verge of dying. There were LOTS of mismanagement from TSR in the last years that could have killed it. Peter, Ryan, & the others involved with WotC bought TSR and released 3e under the OGL for the express purpose of ensuring that the system couldn't die on a vine due to management.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nylanfs View Post
    The primary reason for AD&D to 3e was because D&D as a brand and system was on the verge of dying. There were LOTS of mismanagement from TSR in the last years that could have killed it. Peter, Ryan, & the others involved with WotC bought TSR and released 3e under the OGL for the express purpose of ensuring that the system couldn't die on a vine due to management.
    I see. I understand it a little better. I have to say though I'm not impressed with Wizards behavior over the past several years though. :/

    I really, REALLY, want the One Chosen Hero to leak the Infinity Engine source code. There has never been a better D&D crpg than the original Baldur's Gate. IE might also be the definitive tool for producing adventures. Or it would've been if we could get ahold of a toolset or the source code, or both. At this point, I'm really doubting there will be another again.

    I cannot comment with authority. My preliminary opinion of 5e is VERY positive. However, what we've desperately needed are several things. For one, these hobbies are very expensive. That being said... remember Sword Coast Legends? I never got the chance to play it. they botched one of the BEST IDEAS EVER for a D&D crpg. 4 players, 1 DM. A considerable degree of freedom for the DM, within the limitations necessary to make it practical. It's gone. You cannot play it. You cannot even play it if you already have a copy on Steam through a lan hosting service. It's just gone. Apparently it wasn't that good either.
    We have Neverwinter, which is an extremely abusive game monetization wise. It's not a bad game, but it's not much more than a time waster.

  4. #4
    The core people that started WotC and largely saved D&D from going dormant sold the company to Hasbro and then left. So the majority of the issues you have with WotC are probably due to Hasbro decisions.
    Paul Grosse
    PCGen BoD
    PR Silverback

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nylanfs View Post
    The core people that started WotC and largely saved D&D from going dormant sold the company to Hasbro and then left. So the majority of the issues you have with WotC are probably due to Hasbro decisions.
    Well I don't know much about that. I don't tend to make distinctions between parent companies and the face of the company.

  6. #6
    LordEntrails's Avatar
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    D&D doesn't seem to be an expensive hobby to me. Of course it depends on who foots the bill, what they feel they need to buy, and how much they use it. Let's see, if you went with an FG Ultimate license, the PHB, MM, and DMG that costs what ~$250? Throw in one of the APs and round it up to $300. Might seem steep upfront, but now how much use do people get out of it? I'm guessing, and it depends a whole lot, but one of my groups that is running WDDH right now will probably get at least 200 hours of fun. That's $1.50/hr divided by the whole group. And then the next AP is only $50 for 200 hours.

    If I compare that to a round of golf, prices are all over, but say $45 for 3 hours. That's $15/hr per person. And that's assuming I don't need clubs, shoes, etc.

    If I go do "shooting", that's an easy $500 for the gun and $100/hr for ammo and range fees. Though again, very dependent upon the gun, the ammo, and the range.

    Ok, how about a cup of Starbuck's? That's what $5 for 30 minutes of drink? Or a bar where you might order 2 drinks per hour for $15?

    How about a computer game? Well, I spend at least $800 for the computer and peripherals. Then the game is $50 for 200 hours of fun?

    Now, I could play cops and robbers outside with my friends and pay $5 for some plastic costume pieces and guns etc. And get hundred or thousands of hours of fun out of that.

    It all depends. But compared to what else you spend money on, are RPGs really that expensive? Only you can answer that.

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    D&D doesn't seem to be an expensive hobby to me. Of course it depends on who foots the bill, what they feel they need to buy, and how much they use it. Let's see, if you went with an FG Ultimate license, the PHB, MM, and DMG that costs what ~$250? Throw in one of the APs and round it up to $300. Might seem steep upfront, but now how much use do people get out of it? I'm guessing, and it depends a whole lot, but one of my groups that is running WDDH right now will probably get at least 200 hours of fun. That's $1.50/hr divided by the whole group. And then the next AP is only $50 for 200 hours.

    If I compare that to a round of golf, prices are all over, but say $45 for 3 hours. That's $15/hr per person. And that's assuming I don't need clubs, shoes, etc.

    If I go do "shooting", that's an easy $500 for the gun and $100/hr for ammo and range fees. Though again, very dependent upon the gun, the ammo, and the range.

    Ok, how about a cup of Starbuck's? That's what $5 for 30 minutes of drink? Or a bar where you might order 2 drinks per hour for $15?

    How about a computer game? Well, I spend at least $800 for the computer and peripherals. Then the game is $50 for 200 hours of fun?

    Now, I could play cops and robbers outside with my friends and pay $5 for some plastic costume pieces and guns etc. And get hundred or thousands of hours of fun out of that.

    It all depends. But compared to what else you spend money on, are RPGs really that expensive? Only you can answer that.
    Err, my apologies. It seems i'm biased because of my situation. I effective DON'T have hobbies that don't directly rely on friends and family. I have no income and therefore am extremely limited in what I can do. As a result, everything seems extremely expensive to me.

  8. #8
    LordEntrails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehudah View Post
    Err, my apologies. It seems i'm biased because of my situation. I effective DON'T have hobbies that don't directly rely on friends and family. I have no income and therefore am extremely limited in what I can do. As a result, everything seems extremely expensive to me.
    That's understandable and why I tried to make it clear it all depends Like any hobby, it can be expensive. I was just trying to indicate that compared to many other ways to expand disposable income it's not expensive.

    One thing to keep in mind, if you are looking for an way to build or supplement a small income, you could take after some of the folks around here like Rob2e making and selling FG related content on the DMsGuild. It may not be your thing, and it's not going to make you rich, but you can create and make enough money to pay for your hobby, or even more, their are a few folks who do pretty well, depending upon what you consider

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    That's understandable and why I tried to make it clear it all depends Like any hobby, it can be expensive. I was just trying to indicate that compared to many other ways to expand disposable income it's not expensive.

    One thing to keep in mind, if you are looking for an way to build or supplement a small income, you could take after some of the folks around here like Rob2e making and selling FG related content on the DMsGuild. It may not be your thing, and it's not going to make you rich, but you can create and make enough money to pay for your hobby, or even more, their are a few folks who do pretty well, depending upon what you consider
    Hey that's a really good idea. I actually WAS thinking about that. But if I do that, I probably would have to accept payment in goods, not money. Allow me to explain. My insurance is paid through medicaid, because I am, as I've said before, crippled by an immune system disorder that requires infusions each month (they would cost over 7 thousand dollars....) and unfortunately If I work, which is not necessarily easy for me physically to do to begin with, I risk losing that insurance. So you can see why this is a bit of a problem situation for me.
    I DO occasionally do digital painting, but I'm not good at it. My primary skill would likely be writing, probably writing background stories, settings for campaigns, things like that. I have two BA's. One of which is in History. The other is called "Interdisciplinary studies" where I learned some elements of three fields. Those would be Modern Lettings and Language, (de facto journalism), Judaic Studies, and Anthropology (largely cultural but also for archaeology). I'm not a particularly intelligent person, and I don't really have many skills. I attempted to learn programming two times seriously, and 3-4 times not so seriously, and it was a brutal struggle. I couldn't do it. I don't know how good I would be at writing, and I think it unlikely anyone would want to hire me. But I would be willing to try it.

  10. #10
    LordEntrails's Avatar
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    There is some information here (DMsG FAQ) about the Guild, how you get paid etc. I don't know what constitutes a job for Medicaid etc, but I believe the DMsG does not file tax reports until you reach a yearly income of $2000. I do believe their are one or two other folks in a similar (disability) situation but I don't know any specifics on what they do earn or their limits etc.

    for me, when I do collect the little I earn from my DMsG products I have it sent to PayPal and then I use PayPal to pay for some of my FG purchases.

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