Shame on Smiteworks

[Kibri_Oakbright]

I don't mean for this to be a hate post, in fact it is not, as I really love the FG product and Smiteworks on almost every level but....

Shame on you Smiteworks for not getting this starship combat thing in Starfinder resolved a long time ago. I know there has been road blocks and missing community developers in the past but this should have been completed a long time ago. Paizo has pumped out a ton of SF materials and ship combat is a HUGE part of all that.

And it is not just a Starfinder issue anymore. WotC with the new release of Ghost of Saltmarsh is also now doing a form of ship combat that will also require some FG development, and addistions to the 5e ruleset. (After looking at Saltmarsh ship combat it appears that SF and 5e ship combat is very close in the mechanics with some minor differences).

You just had a huge Kickstarter which is awesome, but perhaps it is time to now throw some resources at this one HUGE glaring flaw in FG, SHIP COMBAT support as it now spans many rulesets including the largest player base ruleset 5e.

Other than that keep up the great work and I think 2020 will be the biggest and best year for FG and Smiteworks to date.

[Zacchaeus]

No changes or additions were required for Saltmarsh.

[notrealdan]

You just had a huge Kickstarter which is awesome, but perhaps it is time to now throw some resources at this one HUGE glaring flaw in FG, SHIP COMBAT support as it now spans many rulesets including the largest player base ruleset 5e.

The work is not done now that the Kickstarter is over. There is a lot of work ahead for SmiteWorks to produce FGU and everything associated with it. And, the whole point of FGU is to move onto a platform that will allow more features and flexibility in the future.

What specific changes are you asking for in FG to accommodate ship combat? Respectfully, it doesn’t really help to complain about something without offering ideas of what to change.

[Kibri_Oakbright]

Zach, how will ship combat work in 5e ruleset using ship combat? Is there a new combat traker or something to accommodate ship combat?? just curious

also, my point wasn't that Smiteworks had to change anything with Saltmarsh itself, it is just a ruleset book, but adding ship combat to 5e will require some different things as ships have their own AC, HP, and Damage thresholds, etc. It won't be like a normal character sheet and I would assume even the combat tracker would be different?

Anyway, Zach I also wanted to say thnx for your reply. you are always fantastic on the forums getting back to people in timely manner and always provided as helpful of answers as you can. Keep up the great work.

[Kibri_Oakbright]

NotrealDan - Have you played Starfinder, done ship combat? It is almost all manual in SF atm, which is something that can be done of course. No ruleset automates 100% of everything we all get that. But for ship combat in SF it is very different than normal PC combat.

In any case, like i said this post wasn't meant to be taken in mean spirit, other than just a scolding and disappointment that ship combat to this day still has not been finished when Smiteworks clearly released the ruleset with ship combat 1/2 way done. And yes I have heard the complications and being a business owner I understand things pop-up or don't go according to plan at times. But to release the SF ruleset with parts of ship combat there, other parts not working, and other parts left out just seems out of the norm for Smiteworks.

I really love FG, can't wait for FGU and was a backer, just frustrated that since the SF release little to nothing has been done to fix the ship combat in SF.

Anyway thank you all for the replies so far and for listening to me vent

[notrealdan]

NotrealDan - Have you played Starfinder, done ship combat? It is almost all manual in SF atm, which is something that can be done of course. No ruleset automates 100% of everything we all get that. But for ship combat in SF it is very different than normal PC combat.

In any case, like i said this post wasn't meant to be taken in mean spirit, other than just a scolding and disappointment that ship combat to this day still has not been finished when Smiteworks clearly released the ruleset with ship combat 1/2 way done. And yes I have heard the complications and being a business owner I understand things pop-up or don't go according to plan at times. But to release the SF ruleset with parts of ship combat there, other parts not working, and other parts left out just seems out of the norm for Smiteworks.

I really love FG, can't wait for FGU and was a backer, just frustrated that since the SF release little to nothing has been done to fix the ship combat in SF.

Anyway thank you all for the replies so far and for listening to me vent

I haven’t played Starfinder or GoS yet, so I have no first-hand experience of what’s not working, and this happens to be the first time I’ve seen such a complaint. Admittedly, I haven’t looked for any. That’s part of why I asked. I have seen someone on YouTube show how they did ship combat and it looked good at the time. I’ll try to dig it up and share it when I get a chance. Maybe it’ll help.

Venting is totally fine, as long as it’s constructive or leads to something constructive. As an engineer, I prefer to hear specifics when someone says something’s not working, otherwise I can do little to help. Though I don’t work for SmiteWorks and have no means to fix FG.

[Zacchaeus]

Zach, how will ship combat work in 5e ruleset using ship combat? Is there a new combat traker or something to accommodate ship combat?? just curious

also, my point wasn't that Smiteworks had to change anything with Saltmarsh itself, it is just a ruleset book, but adding ship combat to 5e will require some different things as ships have their own AC, HP, and Damage thresholds, etc. It won't be like a normal character sheet and I would assume even the combat tracker would be different?

Anyway, Zach I also wanted to say thnx for your reply. you are always fantastic on the forums getting back to people in timely manner and always provided as helpful of answers as you can. Keep up the great work.

I created NPCs for the ships and they go on the CT just like a normal NPC. Depending on the ship there will be a Hull which has it's own AC and Hit Points (and probably a DR - but since DR isn't handled at all in 5e that's a manual process anyway). The hull will also include any attacks the ship has from its armaments. In addition the ship might have other components such as oars, sails, helm etc. Each of these has its own NPC sheet with its own AC and Hit Points. So enemies can target particular parts of the ship individually. The ship is then packaged up in an emcounter with all the individual components ready to place on the CT.

[viresanimi]

I'm sorry. What? Shame???

Have you tried playing a non-d&d game around here? Ship combat not addressed. Oh please. Have you tried Edge of the Empire? Dealing with all the weird quicks and bugs, that won't be addressed because "Paizo is working on another D&D variant"? Look. I understand priorities and D&D is popular. And popularity wins. I am just very very grateful that I can play the game at all. Am I frustrated that Edge is never updated. Sure. But I sure as hell don't go around and "shame" people. Last problem I had with Edge, Trenloe gave me a tip on how to fix it. Took a bit to work it out. And I am grateful for that too.

And if you say: "But that is not something you pay for", can get that too. Mutants and Masterminds is still not a coreruleset either. Again. Probably not a lot of people play it, but I bought and paid for it. Never updated to modern standards. Is that shameful? Nah. Pretty sure Smiteworks are more busy fixing anything D&D related. Which is the only thing that makes sense for them to do.

I am sorry. Perhaps it is just me. I can't abide people moaning like the earth is dying just because the train is 5 mins late. The one thing the rare pain condition that I live with, has given me is perspective. Fantasy Grounds is a luxury! We all want things to work. Sure. I get that. But... really. Shame?

Starfinder is working just fine.


Vires Animi

[ddavison]

We have had a few different devs pop up and offer to work on automating ship combat for Starfinder. Nothing material has resulted from these efforts yet. As it turns out, adding automation requires some decent technical know-how and time. We did post job openings for several new positions after the success of the Kickstarter, though. One of these is a ruleset developer. We may assign that person to do some work on Starfinder, along with work on other systems. Decisions on where to assign this person are going to depend heavily on the user base for each product, how many products call for additional automation, sales numbers, etc. I think we can all agree that it would be awesome to have a nice system that supports all the intricacies of our favorite system. I think we can all also agree that we have been able to play these games in person sitting around a table with nothing more than dice, pencil and paper.

[Trenloe]

Have you tried playing a non-d&d game around here? Ship combat not addressed. Oh please. Have you tried Edge of the Empire? Dealing with all the weird quicks and bugs, that won't be addressed because "Paizo is working on another D&D variant"?

I know you've posted some love for the EotE ruleset in that thread. I think your comparison between a years old, community developed, can-never-be-official ruleset which actually has absolutely *nothing* to do with SmiteWorks and an official ruleset with an active developer (I may be wrong as to the active developer part) is really no comparison at all. Or was your comment more about people complaining? In which case, again, you're using the wrong comparison.

...
Shame on you Smiteworks for not getting this starship combat thing in Starfinder resolved a long time ago. I know there has been road blocks and missing community developers in the past but this should have been completed a long time ago. Paizo has pumped out a ton of SF materials and ship combat is a HUGE part of all that.

And it is not just a Starfinder issue anymore. WotC with the new release of Ghost of Saltmarsh is also now doing a form of ship combat that will also require some FG development, and addistions to the 5e ruleset. (After looking at Saltmarsh ship combat it appears that SF and 5e ship combat is very close in the mechanics with some minor differences).

You just had a huge Kickstarter which is awesome, but perhaps it is time to now throw some resources at this one HUGE glaring flaw in FG, SHIP COMBAT support as it now spans many rulesets including the largest player base ruleset 5e.
...

Back to the original post. I think using the phrase "Shame on you Smiteworks" is also wrong terminology in it's use. Sure, it's a "shame" that ship combat isn't there in the Starfinder ruleset. Is this something that Smiteworks should be shamed for or ashamed of? No, not in my opinion. They've tried multiple times to get a developer to do this and have lost money - I'm sure a lot more than they've ever received from sale of the ruleset (which is now included with FG). Twice bitten, three times shy?

I get it, people want development love given to the systems that they play, but SmiteWorks have to be very careful in where they spend finite resources. Even after a very successful Kickstarter (which has nothing to with ruleset development and still has to be delivered), SmiteWorks have to be very careful with how they spend that money. If they choose to expand their employee base they have to do that in a sustainable model - which is what Doug is saying in his post above. After all SmiteWorks is a company, that now has a not insignificant monthly wage bill, and I'm sure we all want Fantasy Grounds to survive so that we can continue being able to play the games we love over the Internet, with the VTT we (mostly) love.

Like I said, I get it - it would be great to see Starship combat implemented in the Starfinder ruleset. Let's be clear - it's not just a case of "doing starsip combat" and then that's suddenly available for all rulesets to use. Each RPG system does things differently - Starfinder has a very specific turn order, actions, roles, etc. that come into play only for starship combat. Whereas, as Zacchaeus mentions, for 5E ships can be used right now, with really a few tweaks needed to allow ships to be used fully - as 5E uses a lot of the standard 5E combat round and attack/damage mechanics.

It's not as if SmiteWorks are sitting back and not doing any development or aren't releasing new products every week! Where's the shame in them building a successful, sustainable company within their means and picking where they spend their resources?