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  1. #1

    Warlock "Physical Avatar in combat" Patron\Pact?

    Hi there,

    So, quick background, I don't know warlock all that thoroughly, please excuse if this was an obvious google answer I didn't word right or it was listed in a book I haven't purchased yet. I'm also completely unfamiliar with hybrid classes, and I'm asking in terms of strictly one class play.

    In game, I was adventuring with someone whose warlock wanted to make a pack with a being that would temporarily imbue him with a demonic physical presence giving him large combat stat boosts. Looking around at the different Patrons and working in pact of the tome\blade, he couldn't decide in time and he just went blade-fiend.

    but that got me thinking...

    Is there a pact\patron that will allow someone to imbue themselves with that ability? Something like a werewolf but able to perform magic and not feral, perhaps a vampire. Looking for something more demonic\esoteric god's form in combat at the cost of detrimental non combat stats as a human.

    Along the lines of DC Comics's Etrigan. He is not only able to perform Magic at an enhanced ability, but also has enhanced strength, dexterity, and ancient demonic knowledge. As Jason Blood, he has none of these, and in fact is not welcome in most Magic-attuned societies and shops as the aura is extremely obvious from such a powerful curse. This is probably to display the connotation of a curse as opposed to a blessing in the sense that there are major drawbacks to the power which works perfectly for balance in D&D.

    I would argue that if you RP'd something like that, that would be some sort of debuff in Human (Non-Combat) form like a vampire can't enter a building unless welcomed. Maybe extending into a disadvantage\stat loss in CHA rolls for Non-combat situations with people who are magically attuned? Maybe the same disadvantage\stat loss in Perception rolls for Non-combat situations with strong good C\N\L aligned magical forces as well?

    Anyway, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, and patience if the answer is super obvious but I'm not experienced enough to know it.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Nohal; April 14th, 2019 at 18:09.

  2. #2
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    I don't understand; none of the Warlocks Pacts or Archetypes allow them to shapeshift.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea to the wish list http://fg2app.idea.informer.com/

  3. #3
    Ah, I apologize, I meant in terms of a demonic presence. This person would still look like a person, Etrigan\Jason Blood was an example of the stat gain\detriment mechanic. I can kind of guess by your answer though that the answer is no, there is no patron that gives combat boosts for non-combat hindrance.

    Unfortunate, but all the same I appreciate the response.

    Thank you!

  4. #4
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nohal View Post
    Ah, I apologize, I meant in terms of a demonic presence. This person would still look like a person, Etrigan\Jason Blood was an example of the stat gain\detriment mechanic. I can kind of guess by your answer though that the answer is no, there is no patron that gives combat boosts for non-combat hindrance.

    Unfortunate, but all the same I appreciate the response.

    Thank you!
    Whilst there's nothing in the PHB or other sources which allows this that doesn't mean that you can't house rule such things.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea to the wish list http://fg2app.idea.informer.com/

  5. #5
    Warlock/Spore Druid (Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica) or Warlock/Glamour Bard or Warlock/Bloodhunter with or without additional transformation abilities from a race like possibly Aasimar or Shifter or Changeling. Or the lazy way and just give access to Tenser's Transformation as an ability or magic item. = ^.^ =

    Just because there are no rules for the warlock doing it, doesn't mean there are no rules that work in this way. One thing I love to do is rewrite the flavor of something while keeping the mechanics.
    Important rule to remember: When spell casters multiclass they prepare & learn spells for each class as if they were not multiclassed. They can cast spells using any slot they have. So often multiclassed spellcasters have high level spell slots with no spells they can prepare of that level. These slots can only be used for upcasting lower-level spells (like fireball in a 5th level slot for higher damage).

    First Example
    So, take a look at the druid's wildshape ability. Multi-classing warlock plus other spell caster is often quite powerful for the spell casting. Warlocks get 2 (eventually 3) pact magic slots that are very high level and recharge on a short rest. All other casters get a lot of low level spell slots and a few high level ones and they only recharge daily. And the druid has wildshape which lets the caster keep mental stats but gain physical stats of whatever they shape shift into. Most shapeshifting stops new spell casting but allows concentration. However, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica introduced the Spore Druids who use wildshape to increase battle powers without losing spell casting.

    If we ignore the flavor text about mold, ooze, slime, and all that, what mechanically does a Spore Druid give?
    * Use reaction to deal 1d4 damage to one target within 10 feet that moves or starts its turn
    * Bonus spells including: blindness/deafness, animate dead, gaseous form, blight, cloudkill, contagion lot of useful battle magic in here
    * Use a charge of wildshape to gain 4 temp hp/level, deal 2d4 damage with the reaction instead of 1d4, all melee weapon attacks deal +1d6 poison damage
    * Use a reaction to animate a dead corpse as a minion to fight with you for 1 hour
    * Use a bonus action to create a 10-foot cube for aoe damage only while using your wildshape as above
    * You become immune to blind, deaf, fear, poison and critical hits

    Seems pretty solid as a "powerful presence takes over you and makes you more dangerous." You can also use the warlock pact slots for stronger versions of your 1st and 2nd level druid spells, and your low-level druid spell slots for weaker versions of your warlock spells. The pact slots recharge on a short rest so that gives you many more strong spell slots than a druid normally gets. Unless you stop leveling warlock and have the druid go way higher level.

    Second example:
    For an in-depth look at how I used the bloodhunter order of the lycan to represent a vampire instead check here. I think that the same idea can easily apply to your situation. you gain bonus damage, resistance to non-magic non-silver weapons, potentially regeneration, and advantage on strength saves and checks. You also get advantage on some skill checks and fun things like that outside of combat. This one is 100% physical combat gain, no extra spells. But things like the blood curses and crimson rite and semi-magical and might be close enough to fit. I find they worked great in the way they feel similar to warlock invocations.

    Third Example
    For the Glamour Bard, this one is appropriate if the transformation gives mental domination powers. Again, keep, ignore, or change the "looks beautiful" flavor text however you want. But just look at the mechanics and nothing else:
    * Expend one use of inspiration to "give yourself a wonderous appearance" and give up to your Cha Mod targets temp hp and a free move that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity
    * "Perform" for 1 minute to charm up to Cha Mod watchers
    * As a bonus action, take on "an appearance of unearthly beauty" and cast command 1/round without using any spell slots
    * Become beautiful permanently, and as a bonus action become even MORE beautiful so that anyone who tries to attack you has to pass a wisdom safe or automatically miss

    Again you get all the spell casting advantages of combining the warlock pact magic with bardic spell slots. This one doesn't have bonus melee like the other two but definitely has the most magical power as long as it is not battle-magic blaster style. This is controller magic, charms, domination, etc.

    Just rewrite the flavor of any of the above three options for the transformation to be coming from your possessing demonic presence instead of from fungal spores, werewolfs, or beauty. Keep the mechanics that work best. The bloodhunter is killer bonus melee damage, only a tiny bit of bonus magic stuff. The Spore Druid is medium bonus melee lots of powerful magic, including battle magic. the bard is no bonus melee but lots and lots of bonus magic.

    And the lazy way, tenser's transformation is a 6th level spell:
    * No spell casting
    * 50 temp hp
    * advantage on attacks with simple and martial weapons (not unarmed or spells etc)
    * your weapons deal bonus 2d12 force damage
    * gain proficiency with all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons
    * proficiency in str and con saves
    * attack twice when you take the attack action, does not stack with extra attack (or the warlock invocation for blade pact)

    So, the lazy way is to just give access to this spell.

  6. #6

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade View Post

    One thing I love to do is rewrite the flavor of something while keeping the mechanics.

    Important rule to remember: When spell casters multiclass they prepare & learn spells for each class as if they were not multiclassed. They can cast spells using any slot they have.

    First Example
    So, take a look at the druid's wildshape ability....Seems pretty solid as a "powerful presence takes over you and makes you more dangerous." You can also use the warlock pact slots for stronger versions of your 1st and 2nd level druid spells, and your low-level druid spell slots for weaker versions of your warlock spells. The pact slots recharge on a short rest so that gives you many more strong spell slots than a druid normally gets. Unless you stop leveling warlock and have the druid go way higher level.

    Second example:
    For an in-depth look at how I used the bloodhunter order of the lycan to represent a vampire instead check here. I think that the same idea can easily apply to your situation. you gain bonus damage, resistance to non-magic non-silver weapons, potentially regeneration, and advantage on strength saves and checks. You also get advantage on some skill checks and fun things like that outside of combat. This one is 100% physical combat gain, no extra spells. But things like the blood curses and crimson rite and semi-magical and might be close enough to fit. I find they worked great in the way they feel similar to warlock invocations.

    Third Example
    For the Glamour Bard, this one is appropriate if the transformation gives mental domination powers. Again, keep, ignore, or change the "looks beautiful" flavor text however you want. But just look at the mechanics and nothing else...Again you get all the spell casting advantages of combining the warlock pact magic with bardic spell slots. This one doesn't have bonus melee like the other two but definitely has the most magical power as long as it is not battle-magic blaster style. This is controller magic, charms, domination, etc.

    Just rewrite the flavor of any of the above three options for the transformation to be coming from your possessing demonic presence instead of from fungal spores, werewolfs, or beauty. Keep the mechanics that work best. The bloodhunter is killer bonus melee damage, only a tiny bit of bonus magic stuff. The Spore Druid is medium bonus melee lots of powerful magic, including battle magic. the bard is no bonus melee but lots and lots of bonus magic.
    Thank you for the extremely thorough response!!

    It definitely took me a few read throughs before I knew how I wanted to respond, as some of the suggested material not only gave me new insight to this class, but others as well.

    I haven't done much multi-classing, but, from the context of those first two statements, as well as decently balanced stats, the Spore Druid mixture is a perfect fit. The bard is also something I can see, but its 50\50 on whether your DM will make you actually sing to bard cast. The blood hunter threw me off up till about Stoker's Dracula. Then I started changing my mind again, and I've got another thing to think about regarding vampires as a whole as well as for a possible answer to my question.

    I'm definitely going to be exploring that first statement more as well. I've been playing almost word for word from my class\race\background descriptions so I don't get lawyer'd or ruin someone's game but I'm starting to feel more and more like most people think its actually fine, and I'm just being paranoid.

    Much appreciated!
    Last edited by Nohal; April 16th, 2019 at 04:46.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nohal View Post
    I'm definitely going to be exploring that first statement more as well. I've been playing almost word for word from my class\race\background descriptions so I don't get lawyer'd or ruin someone's game but I'm starting to feel more and more like most people think its actually fine, and I'm just being paranoid.
    This is one of my favorite ways to build characters. I also use the strategy with monsters where I keep the stats identical and then just change the description. I turned a hobgoblin chief into a dwarf mercenary captain that way, lol. My players thought he was a very scary dwarf. Never once suspected he was a hobgoblin under the covers.

    I also have helped a player who wanted to be a hag make it work using a druid and the half orc race.

    And, I actually made three vampires using different classes to simulate different movie/book/mythological versions. So the blood hunter/lycan focused on transformation. Warlock Undying Pact is an emphasis on the magical vampire with charm powers. And I used a Totem Barbarian with wolf renamed "rat", elk renamed "wolf" and eagle renamed "bat" and the rage to simulate a lesser transformation, like when pretty vampires get scary but not ugly. I haven't finished the third writeup yet.

    There's a lot of ways to unleash creativity with story telling by looking at the powers and how they might be interpreted differently. But you are correct that it is important, not just because of rules lawyers, to have the players and DM on the same page with these things.

    Much appreciated!
    Anytime.

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