GenCon Discussion

[Dukeybear]

Hey kalmarjan,

Thanks for your post. While I don't want to turn this forum into a personal discussion, please let me respond to a few things and lets agree to take this to email if there is anything further.

• I thought about responding to Thore_Ironrock all weekend. So there is no dirty boot taste.
• Just because I have low post totals has nothing to do with me not being around for awhile. I've check this board every couple of days for news since I purchased the product early last year. I usually don't post off the seat of my pants because it's just not worth it to me except in rare occasions.
• You've missed my entire point about PR classes and such. I am not a company mouthpiece (I do not represent my company so there is not professionalism involved with what I stated). Although I believe my above post was fairly well written and non-inflammatory.
• I don't know why you think that I am demanding the product now in a buggy state. I dont want bugs. My whole point about the product is YES... the community is understanding. Don't belittle us.
• Your constant usage of something I said in a post ad nauseum is either your idea of being insanely clever or school yard mocking. Especially when you say you are not attacking me. If you weren't, why throw words up in my face repeatedly?
• Why you feel you need to be condescending to me (see above) over a post that was not directed to you in any way, shape or form is beyond me but thats your call. Maybe you're angling for a tshirt from somebody.

In short, I think FG is an awesome product with an EXCELLENT user base. The level of patience that everyone has with repeated delays shows just how supportive the customer is. I think thats great. I am a Smite Works supporter. I am a Fantasy Grounds supporter. I love it. My friends and I play D&D every other weekend which is something that we haven't been able to do since we "grew up" and were scattered around the globe.

I think the level of ingenuity that people have demonstrated with getting custom rule sets and helping each other out with XML since there is so little documentation is outstanding! YAY for people! This level of comraderie and mutual respect is a model for a fanbase and other software developers would love to have such excellent and fairly undemanding customers.

This is why, tongue in cheek or not, I was offended. Because I am a customer too. I so many times wanted to post, "Any news? It's been 4 weeks since we last heard from somebody." but haven't. This amazing group of people (US) was told "Sit down and shut up" from someone who isn't even SW. If you are ok with that, fine. Take it like a good boy. Dont tell me that I am out of line and repeat something over and over again like youre Whitman.

I dont want your post to poison future readers of this thread against me. I could go on but I wont. I want this to be friendly and these forums to be a happy place. We should be strong and enthuiastic towards the product and that is why I posted: Because I feel that we deserve better.

Thanks! Love you all!

[kalmarjan]

Sorry to have offended you.

I can understand your frustration with hearing what you believe to be a condescending remark from Thore. That said, I am the type of person who will come to the defense of someone who is not there to defend himself. (Thore was at the booth in GenCon, and having issues with his connectivity, so it is not like he could write in to defend himself.)

Also, when a person is making an attack against the owner of DA (Digital Adventures), I feel the need to jump in to make that defense, because I work for Thore. (I was the person who created the layout/graphics arts for the Iron Heroes ruleset, with Thore.)

As for length in time, I feel your pain. I have been with FG since the beginning, and I have waited a Long Time for the update. With apprehension, if I may add, because rumor says there is going to be a major change in the structure of FG. While that creates more fun for me trying to redo my RTTTOEE campaign, I am really hoping that the guys at SW take their time and get it right.

I will not make this into a personal thread against you. The reason I wrote my post the way I did was to drive home my point on the irony of your original post. I understand if you took offense, but I also hope that you understand by concluding that Thore is condescending you and the other people reading this thread is just plain wrong.

Put yourself in his shoes for a second. Four days at a GenCon booth with about every 2nd person asking when the new update is coming. He logs onto the forums and sees... every second question is about the new update and when it is coming. In his shoes, I would ask everyone to be patient as well.

Lastly, if you felt that I was condescending towards you, I am sorry that you feel that way. Rest assured, that was not my intention. If I was to be condescending, there would be no doubt in your mind as to whether I was or not. I just do not go out like that.

Cheers,

Sandeman

[Dukeybear]

Thanks! While we might just have to agree to disagree on some things I appreciate your response.

I wish FG, SW and Digital Adventures, LLC the very best and I want them to succeed. IMO RPG'ing is one of the best things you can do with a group of friends and I appreciate their efforts to facilitate that great occasion.

So without getting involved with intreweb forum drama (which is pretty trivial when you have a mortgage payment to pay and dogs to pet) lets all have a:

group hug!

I think we can all agree that we want FG to be the best possible product.

Adios and have fun at Gencon!

[Ablefish]

Heh, I'm glad you guys worked this out and I'm not trying to fan any fires, but I also found Thore's post somewhat condescending and the only point I tried to make (and I thought Dukeybear made very well) was that some sort of semi-regular communication would alleviate a lot of the Posting and Asking that Thore found so annoying. That's all. Simple. You have the perfect medium to talk to your fans - this web page!

I mean, if the developers really find it that annoying to constantly have fans asking when the promised update of their product is coming out and you have to do a rigourous backsearch on this forum or go to a game convention to pester a guy in a booth for an answer, then...well, they've made their own bed and will have to lie in it.

But still, I love FG (we just discovered how good Skype conference calling worked last night!) and I wish them the best.

[taliesinangelus]

A short snapshot of the development cycle wouldn't take very long to post and wouldn't give away the farm if they want to keep some things back to use in marketing later.

I'm thinking that people are asking the questions because they are interested in the product. This is a good thing and something to be used for positive marketing momentum rather than deflected. It all depends on whether you see your customers as annoyances or as profit on the hoof. I am inclined to read the response written here by Thore as more of the former than the latter.

[Ugluk]

Dukeybear:

Get off your high horse.

You took offense to a post? Well, welcome to the Internet.

You think they are being unprofessional? Bullshit. This is a niche market gaming tool. It's not a military application that is going to affect a country's ability to defend itself. It's not a statewide child support enforcement system (like I worked on) that helps moms keep their babies fed. It's a game. Not even that, it's a tool to help people play a game in a different medium. And .. the product has been delivered. It is playable as sold. They are marketing a marketable product.

They want to make improvements for a new version. Great. You may not perceive that you or others are hounding them, but you aren't looking at it from their point of view, which is the sum of all the requests, and repeated requests for information. If they tell you about something they are working on but they decide against it due to feasibility, they are going to get no end of **** about it. In their shoes, I'd keep my cards close to the chest as well.

[Ablefish]

Lol, welcome to the internet indeed... Where any poster can sign up and inflame a conversation.

I really don't think it involves a very high horse to suggest that if the developers are tired of hearing people whine (and that was very much the tone of Thore's email) that they should consider offering more information to their clients. I'm not saying they have to release a feature list, just something beyond nothing. I honestly haven't heard any kind of valid reason why this should be impossible. Should be part of doing business don't you think?

And I hope you're not suggesting that because FG isn't a military or business application that the developers are incapable of being unprofessional? Last time I checked, they sell a product and have clients... ? What am I missing?

[Ugluk]

I'll grant that I have not been among these forums for long. Perhaps you can point out to me where Smite Works is selling version 2.0. When I purchased the full license I may have missed a bullet point stating that "version 1.5 works but what you really want is 2.0 which is coming out soon".

Not having seen that so far, I think you are using the term 'client' fairly liberally. You purchased a one-time-fee product. You are not on a support contract. You are not using services of Smite Works other than the forum itself. You have a functional product.

My point / opinion is that if Smite Works is not trying to market 2.0 to you, you shouldn't claim to be a mistreated client.

[Ablefish]

Hmm... You sure you're not reading more into what's being said? Don't quite know how we arrived at "mistreated client". I'm pretty sure I mentioned several times (in this very thread) how highly I thought of 1.5.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that because 2.0 is free to the current "client base", we're not entiltled to any information about the project, despite original statements that it would be released end of April?

For the sake of argument, let's say that's true - we're all not on a support-contract, so they owe us nothing. And saying that, it basically reduces the current userbase to "fans", rather than "clients".

Fine, as fans, do you think it's unreasonable to start asking "what's up?" when you go another 2 months without any kind of official statement the last being in June?

And, ironically, if you read Goblin-King's post, he mentions releasing 2.0 as a public test version with the focus being on collecting a lot of feedback from the users. It also talks about being interested in the opinions of users on the new system... and of providing documents to help support the community's ruleset modification efforts... etc... all kinds of little carrots.

But you know what, I could live with the lack of updates - it's admittedly a little shoddy for a company that relies a lot of its users to promote and provide supplemental material - but I could live with. But I do take exception to Thore coming on and saying how annoying it is to have people constantly asking when it's coming out. What the hell do you think is going to happen when deadlines slip by and there is NO word for 2 months.

It's not challenging stuff - just provide some information more often than every 2 months. Very simple. "Hello, we've been busy, things are working out nicely... yadayda.."

[Larac]

From the post I was called a whiny child

"I've been speaking to the SW boys about the next update, and either they or I will post something before the end of the weekend."


To be fair he never said which weekend, but it was implied.

Tues. still waiting.....


Lee