WotC fraudulent Twitch numbers...

[damned]

You would think after Paizo and SmiteWorks sign an agreement for official Pathfinder support! there would be more respect for Paizo around here, but considering Pathfinder is thrown in with 3.5 as a combined forum, i guess not...

...

So while you two may not recognize Paizo as a legal company with legal rights, other people do. Those rights do include not having their brands and IP diluted by the likes of Twitch or Fantasy Grounds.

No one is pooping on Paizo. From everything I have seen Paizo is a great company. And their Adventure Paths are very, very well done.

Both false and absurd.

If they could, then Pathfinder could claim that they are D&D. They can't.


Yes, it would.

Pathfinder is a Paizo trademark.

Paizo just happens to produce, amoung other things, some OGL compliant products. They do not produce D&D products.

Someone makes a generalisation - that has a fair element of truth and you come back with - all Labradors are dogs therefore all dogs are Labradors?

Pathfinder is a direct evolution of D&D 3.5E. That in no way detracts from all the great stuff that Paizo have put into Pathfinder.

Quotes by Paizo "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is an evolution of the 3.5 rules set of the world's oldest fantasy roleplaying game, designed using the feedback of tens of thousands of gamers just like you. " and "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has been designed with compatibility with previous editions in mind, so you'll be able to use your existing library of 3.5 products with minimal effort. In fact, the Pathfinder RPG is designed to smooth over a number of the rough spots in the 3.5 rules set, making several existing books even easier to use."

Pathfinder is commonly called D&D 3.75E - by Pathfinder people trying to explain what is to D&D people or newcomers.

When you look at Games played on Fantasy Grounds or on Roll 20 they both tell similar stories - D&D in its various forms - which to me includes Pathfinder - account for over 80% of RPG sessions being played. This is not dissing on Paizo, dissing on Pathfinder, this is just acknowledging that this type of heroic fantasy rpg represents the vast bulk of the market and the Wizards and Paizo variants are the whales in this pond.

[shadzar]

Someone makes a generalisation

and that is the very problem and root cause of the fraud in the numbers reported. someone at Twitch generalized "All RPGs are D&D", and Greg Tito then took that "Only D&D appears in Twitch D&D section" because the Twitch TOS and Guidelines say people must put streams in the proper category.

That is why every page you copy from one to another is a Xerox copy, and all gelatinous desserts are Jell-o, every form of first aid wound protection is a Band-Aid.

You would think the people moderating these forums here at Roll20 would understand you shouldn't generalize.

[esmdev]

You are the one that is calling it a problem. Do you think anyone at Paizo even cares about this? If they did care then why didn't they bring it up themselves? If they were really worried about it, why didn't they go to Twitch in the first place to get a separate channel? It's not like they aren't big enough to make it happen. It may even be the case that they actually wanted it this way to get more exposure from a more well known name.

If you can advertise your product for free using a much larger more well known brand why not do it? Consider the IBM PC and how many companies used the term IBM Compatible to sell their products? Dell, Compaq, HP, every small store throwing random parts together, etc. Same with Pathfinder, the closer linked they were to D&D the easier it was for them to sell Pathfinder.

The reality is that Pathfinder at it's core is D&D regardless of the name. If you use the d20 OGL you simply cannot deny that your product is based on D&D 3.0 or 3.5. If it were not based on either of those D&D versions it would not need the OGL statement. Nor would they need to credit the designers of D&D and the designers of 3.0 in the credit page and state clearly that it is based on the original role playing game rules designed by Gary Gygax and Dave Arenson. If not for the OGL & Open Game Content restrictions on the use of the D&D trademark they would have just said based on D&D.

Regardless, it's really silly for you to be going on about WotC / Twitch relations on a totally unrelated forum. People come here for Fantasy Grounds support or to announce/look for games. I doubt people come here to be dragged into random unrelated game company conspiracy theories. Why not go postulate your conspiracies on Twitch or Reddit. People there really get into topics like this.

You would think the people moderating these forums here at Roll20 would understand you shouldn't generalize.

Oh, one last thing, this is the FG forum not the Roll20 forum.

[Ram Tyr]

Someone makes a generalisation - that has a fair element of truth and you come back with - all Labradors are dogs therefore all dogs are Labradors?

The better straw man would have been something along the lines that if the labradors claim the poodles as labradors they wouldn't be able to complain when the poodles start calling themselves labradors. Of course, it is absurd because nobody except damned is talking about dogs. (And certainly the dogs are only talking in our rpg games.)

Pathfinder is a direct evolution of D&D 3.5E.

Nobody disagrees with that statement.

That in no way detracts from all the great stuff that Paizo have put into Pathfinder.

Quotes by Paizo "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is an evolution of the 3.5 rules set of the world's oldest fantasy roleplaying game, designed using the feedback of tens of thousands of gamers just like you. " and "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has been designed with compatibility with previous editions in mind, so you'll be able to use your existing library of 3.5 products with minimal effort. In fact, the Pathfinder RPG is designed to smooth over a number of the rough spots in the 3.5 rules set, making several existing books even easier to use."

Pathfinder is commonly called D&D 3.75E - by Pathfinder people trying to explain what is to D&D people or newcomers.

When you look at Games played on Fantasy Grounds or on Roll 20 they both tell similar stories - D&D in its various forms - which to me includes Pathfinder - account for over 80% of RPG sessions being played. This is not dissing on Paizo, dissing on Pathfinder, this is just acknowledging that this type of heroic fantasy rpg represents the vast bulk of the market and the Wizards and Paizo variants are the whales in this pond.

This entire quoted portion is irrelevant.

Lots of rpgs cover the same fantasy space that D&D does... that does not make them D&D, it doesn't grant any legal rights to claim the trademark.

Let me try an "analogy" of the type that damned used in the quote above... American democracy is evolved in part from the English (just to pick an easy one)... portions of the United States of America having once been a colony of the English Empire... modern life in both countries is strikingly similar (what with speaking English, elected representatives, cell phones, internet, netflix, britbox, etc.)... politicians are both sides make references to the 'special relationship' between the two countries... Despite all of that nobody believes that the United States of America is a part of the UK, right? Nobody believes the reverse, right? For good reason. Lets not trivialize the valid point being made that despite the connection between them Pathfinder and D&D are two separate games from separate companies.

Now, make a joke if you like... (Ha ha, Pathfinder is D&D!) but when the joke falls flat because the requisite underlying truth of the joke rings hollow... don't defend the joke. If the discussion is about an actual issue, get on to the issue.

The point of the thread was in the absurdity of D&D claiming all of the numbers under the D&D twitch heading. Feel free to get back to discussing that. The law provides an answer as to whether Pathfinder is D&D. Funnily enough, the d20 license was created to enforce a division between what is and is not actually D&D. All that protected Product Identity behind the locked gates.

[Ram Tyr]

The reality is that Pathfinder at it's core is D&D regardless of the name. If you use the d20 OGL you simply cannot deny that your product is based on D&D 3.0 or 3.5. If it were not based on either of those D&D versions it would not need the OGL statement. Nor would they need to credit the designers of D&D and the designers of 3.0 in the credit page and state clearly that it is based on the original role playing game rules designed by Gary Gygax and Dave Arenson. If not for the OGL & Open Game Content restrictions on the use of the D&D trademark they would have just said based on D&D.

This here is the paradox. You seem to understand that the license defines the legal relationship... and that it prevents a claim to "being D&D"... yet, you don't want to acknowledge that the legal separation between the two is the point?

Regardless, it's really silly for you to be going on about WotC / Twitch relations on a totally unrelated forum. People come here for Fantasy Grounds support or to announce/look for games. I doubt people come here to be dragged into random unrelated game company conspiracy theories. Why not go postulate your conspiracies on Twitch or Reddit. People there really get into topics like this.

If people here aren't interested they won't respond. It is a community forum, people chat about stuff wholly irrelevant to Fantasy Grounds all the time.

Oh, one last thing, this is the FG forum not the Roll20 forum.

I believe that was the point. If you don't mind D&D claiming a competitor then...

[esmdev]

This here is the paradox. You seem to understand that the license defines the legal relationship... and that it prevents a claim to "being D&D"... yet, you don't want to acknowledge that the legal separation between the two is the point?

I haven't ever stated that Paizo is not a separate legal entity. I have stated that Pathfinder is a derivative product based on the d20 SRD under the OGL. The core of d20 is the third edition of the D&D rules. Legally, it's not that they cannot claim to be D&D it is that they cannot use or reference specific trademarks related to D&D including D&D. Paizo has in fact claimed that Pathfinder is essentially D&D 3.75 on several occasions.

People seem to feel that I have some negative feelings about Pathfinder, that is not the case. I am simply pointing out the legal and intellectual realities of the OGL and everything that is written to use it. I don't have any feeling about Pathfinder one way or another.

Pathfinder 1 will always be linked to D&D regardless of what people think. By using the OGL Pathfinder is mechanically and contractually linked to d20. Obviously Paizo doesn't have a problem with this as they have also written Pathfinder 2 under the OGL.

So since people seem to think that Wizards/Hasbro/Twitch are entirely in the wrong, let me ask a simple question. If Pathfinder is not D&D and Pathfinder videos were posted in the D&D channel, then why didn't everyone report the Pathfinder videos when they were posted for being in the incorrect channel? If enough people had bothered to report incorrectly posted videos certainly Twitch would have done something about it. Create a separate Pathfinder channel, remove the Pathfinder videos from the D&D channel completely, etc.

Someone said that the Twitch moderators don't know the difference between D&D and Pathfinder and Lords of Creation, but certainly the users do. Well most, some might not really be able to see a difference between the two in actual play.

[shadzar]

why didn't everyone report the Pathfinder videos when they were posted for being in the incorrect channel? If enough people had bothered to report incorrectly posted videos certainly Twitch would have done something about it. Create a separate Pathfinder channel, remove the Pathfinder videos from the D&D channel completely, etc.

They did, even Twitch's very own 1st D&D streamer, JP McDaniels aka https://www.twitch.tv/itmeJP ; for 4+ YEARS!

https://clips.twitch.tv/NimbleIncred...rlietheUnicorn

EDIT: Here let me give you a bonus i did NOT announce yet in the forum here on FG... https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Savage%20Worlds you know why i didn't place the notice that a category exists on Twitch for it, because it doesn't have Box Art for it yet, meaning Twitch could pull it. but anyone from Savage Worlds team could easily follow the prior link to add box art from post #6 and get the game some box art on Twitch to solidify the category so people can start using it instead of "Tabletop RPGs" since there is a few people who Savage Worlds on Twitch using Fantasy Grounds. Good luck finding them however since nobody knows the category exists and they are scattered throughout other categories..

[Full Bleed]

The point of the thread was in the absurdity of D&D claiming all of the numbers under the D&D twitch heading. Feel free to get back to discussing that.

Exactly. I'm not as up-in-arms about it as Shadzar (I think I've gone to the twitch site a total of 3-4 times), but truth matters. No matter how you slice it, there was an official claim made that nearly every RPG being streamed on Twitch was D&D. And, as it turns out, it's simply not true. Shadazar explained how it's not true. Why it's not true. And how D&D is misrepresenting their numbers.

Is this OK because is was D&D's Senior Communications Manager speaking to SyFy? I can tell you for a fact that it would not be ok if it was their CEO saying that to share holders. Why is it ok for the Communication's Manager to misrepresent the reality but not the CEO?

Few around here would stand for Roll20 stealing FG's thunder if their use numbers were somehow throw into one basket and then Roll20 falsely claimed that the entire basket was representative of their product's popularity and use. And if FG lumped all OGL products into the D&D basket when it reported usage, you can bet that their other licensees would be quite unappreciative.

And, yes, even further down the chain... at the consumer level... I do think it's fair for supporters of a product to challenge the "stolen valor" of their favorite game systems where they see it.

The law provides an answer as to whether Pathfinder is D&D. Funnily enough, the d20 license was created to enforce a division between what is and is not actually D&D. All that protected Product Identity behind the locked gates.

QFT.

[Myrdin Potter]

And, yes, even further down the chain... at the consumer level... I do think it's fair for supporters of a product to challenge the "stolen valor" of their favorite game systems where they see it.


QFT.

Gamers, me included, take rules and the games we like pretty seriously. But I do draw a line between “stolen valor” and some marketing statistic.

Twitch is owned by Amazon which also owns Curse that just happens to publish D&D Beyond. So their is a business relationship between Hasbro and Twitch.

However, to someone not a fan and not too much into the industry, all the games mentioned are “D&D”, just like photocopying was Xerox.

I am not sure why arguing this on the FG forums is very relevant as Smiteworks already had to fight their battle to get Fantasy Grounds in a category of its own and they carefully report ruleset numbers to the best of the ability when it comes to their software.

They have a license with WoTC and Paizo and supported both before their was a license.

[shadzar]

I am not sure why arguing this on the FG forums is very relevant

because SmiteWorks created the section for it.

The Commons
Non-Fantasy Grounds related discussion about gaming.

and White Wolf's return and Paizo having Pathfinder 2, i am sure would not like everyone to keep referring to their product as "just a different D&D".

if that is the case, why does FG have more than the 5e ruleset?

claiming something that isnt your own to any degree is also something SmiteWorks has a relevant history with in regards to HASBRO. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/misc/infringement.html

getting Fantasy Grounds on Twitch was as easy as getting it listed on GiantBomb, and then sending a 800*600 images to Twitch. people have done that for kickstarted products that havent gotten made yet in under 1 hours time by signing in.

Should Doug tell Trevor Kidd to "Go ahead and use those dice in any product you want now because you work for WotC and we have an agreement with WotC so just take our stuff"?

credit where credit is due, and stolen work, is stolen work... and fraud is fraud, be it Greg claiming false numbers due to a failure on his/WotC/Twitch's part in reporting numbers, or WotC in stealing FG dice images for promotional material.