having problems as DM

[Snikle]

And they say 3.0/3.5 is not for power gamers......silly people. A 45 STR? You have got to be kidding, we playing D&D or Marvel Super Heros?

[kalmarjan]

OK, I'll bite. How do you get a 10th level character to 45. I'm assuming a start of 20 with adding the 4th and 8th bonuses. So now there are only 23 points of strength to make up. I am only coming up with another 6 or so off the top of my head. I don't doubt you, I'm just hoping to expand my knowledge here.

I'm not so sure about what books would be allowed, but here goes:

Since you are munchkining, lets make it interesting:
(Human)
1. Barbarian 1 - Destructive Rage, Power Attack
2. Fighter 1 - Cleave
3. Ranger 1 - Extra Rage
4. Ranger 2 - Two Weapon Combat
5. Ranger 3 - Endurance
6. Horizon Walker 1 - Intimidating Rage (Tirelessness)
7. Frenzied Berserker 1
8. Frenzied Berserker 2
9. Frenzied Berserker 3 - Iron Will
10. Holy Liberator 1

Add in a Manual of Gainful Excersize +2, A belt of Giant Strength +6, and you are looking at some hefty things here.

If you are just using the SRD, I made an Orc Character that gets 37 STR while raging, with the Manual of Gainful Excersize +2, and the Belt of Giant Strength +6. Here is his stat block.

Orc (PC); Orc (pc) Bbn10: CR 10; ECL 10; Size M; HD 10d12+10; hp 140; Init +0; Spd 40 ft (base 30 ft); AC 8, touch 8, FF 8; BAB +10/+5; Grapple +22; Atk: +24/+19 melee (1d3 + 14, Unarmed); SA -; SQ Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity; AL CG; SV Fort +13, Ref +3, Will +5; Str 39, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8.
Languages spoken: Common, Orc
Skills and Feats: Appraise -1, Balance +0, Bluff -1, Climb +14, Concentration +4, Craft (Armorsmith) -1, Craft (Bowmaking) -1, Craft (Gemcutting) -1, Craft (Locksmithing) -1, Craft (Trapmaking) -1, Craft (Weaponsmith) -1, Craft (Other) -1, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +0, Forgery -1, Gather Information -1, Heal -1, Hide +0, Intimidate -1, Survival -1, Jump +14, Listen -1, Move Silently +0, Perform -1, Control Shape -1, Perform (Act) -1, Ride +0, Perform (Comedy) -1, Search -1, Sense Motive -1, Spot -1, Swim +14, Use Rope +0, Perform (Dance) -1, Perform (Keyboard) -1, Perform (Oratory) -1, Perform (Percussion) -1, Perform (String) -1, Perform (Wind) -1, Perform (Sing) -1; Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Cleave, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Special Abilities: Damage Reduction, Darkvision, Fast Movement, Illiteracy, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rage, Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge.
Possessions: , Belt of giant strength +6, Manual of gainful exercise +2.

Note, I could have gone further, but I really did not feel like looking it up.

A really good book to get if you are interested in character optimization is Goodman's Powergamer's Series. (I think they have one for warriors.)

Sandeman

{EDIT} Just to explain a little further here. Lets say you took the greataxe with the orc barbarian build. Now you are looking at 2 handed damge, with a power attack potential of +10. So in my first attack, while I only get +14 to hit, I am doing 1d12+31 damage. If I critical, look out! Now I would be doing 3d12+93 Damage. Not a bad deal.

To get even more sick, change it up for an Ogre Character. +10 to Str. WIth the enhancements, you are looking at 43 Str for the character, albeit you would only be level 8. To top it off, if you crited on the greataxe, dow you would be doing 9d6+102 damage with the power attack. You know what? You may be saying that this is impossible... All it would take you is to roll 100 on the reincarnate table. LOL{/edit}

[dLANbandit]

Manual of gainful exercise +2 on a character that sufferes from Illiteracy?

I think as a responsible DM I wouldn't allow that.

[kalmarjan]

LOL

Note, there are no skill points spent. I built the character really fast. I am sure though, by spending 2 skill points sometime early on in the barbarian's career, it would overcome your obstacle there.

If not, then the Str score drops by 2. No big deal.

Sandeman

[Craw]

(Human)
1. Barbarian 1 - Destructive Rage, Power Attack
2. Fighter 1 - Cleave
3. Ranger 1 - Extra Rage
4. Ranger 2 - Two Weapon Combat
5. Ranger 3 - Endurance
6. Horizon Walker 1 - Intimidating Rage (Tirelessness)
7. Frenzied Berserker 1
8. Frenzied Berserker 2
9. Frenzied Berserker 3 - Iron Will
10. Holy Liberator 1

Add in a Manual of Gainful Excersize +2, A belt of Giant Strength +6, and you are looking at some hefty things here.

OK, at 10th level, this character would have a base strength of 21 from the original 18, the 4th and 8th level bonuses and the Manual (+1 manual is all a 10th level character could afford if he also gets the belt). He would be running around with a constant 27 from the Belt of Giant Strength. During a rage and frenzy it would bump to 37.

This is not nearly as powergamer as it looks, as this character is almost assuredly going to die in any serious fight. Using standard builds, all the other stats are going to be weak. Since the entire character wealth available to a normal 10th level character is used on these two items, AC is going to be pedestrian at best. Saves are going to be awful. The rage/frenzy combo on a character with poor ac and hp (no stats or magic boosting bought) means he will probably have attacked his own party from failed will saves and croak at the end of the frenzy anyway.

My faith in the (generally) balanced rules of 3.5e is reinforced and I learned that Frenzy and Rage stack. A good thread.

[Stuart]

And they say 3.0/3.5 is not for power gamers

"They" are wrong ... and somewhere along the way a lot of roleplayers were lost.

[Craw]

"They" are wrong ... and somewhere along the way a lot of roleplayers were lost.

No. Somewhere along the way a lot of grognards were attracted. Let's face it, roleplayers can roleplay in any system. D&D 3.5e is just a very versatile system. It lends itself equally to the min/maxing powergamer (and I assume that is what you mean as real munchkins can break any system with the acquiescence of the DM) as it does the pure roleplayer.

I am an unabashed powergamer. I love learning the rules and using the great variety of options to my benefit. But I doubt that our resident powergame bemoaner, Snikle, would deny that I roleplay my *** off. Grappling and bull-rushing are rule intensive combat options. But they make for great visuals of a dwarf trying to shove a shambling mound into a wall to see if it is electrified.

[kalmarjan]

Please, no Role-playing vs Powergaming. <Gets sick>

If anyone wants to talk about how "powergaming" is not roleplaying, consider this:

I could build a character that has flavor, and min/max him as well. I could also build a character that is all flavor and no substance, only to have the DM kill him off in the first couple of levels.

The way that I approach things is to have a balance. If the players in my campaign are all playing bloated HP Tanks, then I adjust things accordingly. This forces me to really examine the rules to compensate. Optimization is available for monsters as well.

If you think that this style of play is not your bag, then that is fine. OTOH, how are your players? It is your job as the DM to ensure that there is fun on all sides, including yours.

When I was a younger player. (Gods I shudder to say that), I was all about "role-playing" and restricting this and that in the name of "good role playing". Does any of you know why?

It was because I was conditioned to that paradigm when I was just learning to play. One of the reasons that I cannot stand Gary Gygax (please.... no flames mommy ) is that the guy bemoans the whole min/max system, and rules, but then puts out an encyclopedia for a source book.

Finally, think of your powergame this way: Like the comic books, your players are supposed to be a cut above the rest. They are heroes. They should be more than mundane. If you cannot challenge them as a DM, then re-examine what you are doing. (In other words, if you cannot beat them, join them.)

Beleive it or not, I cheer when my players foil the death attack of the assassin because the assassin rolled a natural 1. When the chain fighter pulls off a crit that nearly rips the guys head off, I am thinking that the scene is just about the coolest that I have ever seen. I can tell you that I am not worried about good roleplaying, because I introduce that element into the play. Suddenly I am not so worried about my carefully laid plans, but about what happens next?

What does the assassin do? The players are going to question him for sure.... This is the fun part of DMing for me...

Player: Who sent you after us?
Assassin: Gol-Guy, Pupil of the Jade Mask.
Player: Who is this Gol-Guy?
Assassin: Gol-Guy, Pupil of the Jade Mask.
Player: I said who the hell is he?
Assassin: Gol-Guy, Pupil of the Jade Mask.

Sure, the players beat the hell out of him. Am I upset about the plans? Hell no. Now it is time for me to throw out other hooks for the sucker... I mean players to grab.

The point of this, have fun, don't worry about the whole powergaming aspect, be creative and incorparate role-playing into the situation.

Don't restrict, compensate. Everybody wins then.

Sandeman

[Snikle]

I am an unabashed powergamer. I love learning the rules and using the great variety of options to my benefit. But I doubt that our resident powergame bemoaner, Snikle, would deny that I roleplay my *** off. Grappling and bull-rushing are rule intensive combat options. But they make for great visuals of a dwarf trying to shove a shambling mound into a wall to see if it is electrified.

I agree, but I would rather have a player describe to me what he wanted to do , than to break out some encyclopedia on rules. I would love to run a rules lite system....but for some reason players are afraid of it. Frankly I think a rules lite system (which some of my players may say my game IS) opens up a million more possibilities than D&D 3.5 (plus it's 500 additional rule books) would ever allow. A good DM should be able to take a player who says "I want to shoot an arrow off the knights shield, and angle it just right so it cut the hangman's noose around my friend's neck" and figure out a reasonable answer appropriate to the situation and story, rather than have to open a few books and do 15 minutes worth of calculations.

[Axeminister]

I'd say run them into one of those mirrors where they have to fight themselves, and killem.