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  1. #11

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    Per d20srd:
    "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

    An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round. "

    You only get ONE attack. Not all of your attacks. The only time you get all your attacks is when you do a 'full attack' as your action that round.

    Its like if you move and attack... you only get to swing once.

    rv

  2. #12

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    Also: I tried to argue (as the dm) that one of the players could take 2 swings as an AoO becuase of Two-Weapon-Fighting. The players argued me out of it. I couldn't find anything in the rules to back me up on it.

    You know, my game next Thursday is going to be very combat heavy. If you want you could join in and lurk. Let you see how other people do things.

    Let me know...

    rv

  3. #13
    PHB 137:

    ...Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: if you have the Combat Reflexes Feat (page 92), you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack per given opportunity, but if the opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you - such as moving out of a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square - you could make two seperate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round does not count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

    So, by the core rules, RV is right, unless your opponent does two different actions that cause the AoO. (And your player has the Combat Reflexes Feat)

    There are other feats which allow more AoO, but these are in supplemental rule books which allow for uber builds.

    At the core here is something that is always debatable: Characters with uber builds frustrating DMs to no end.

    What it comes down to is this: Is everyone having fun at this session? (That includes you, MR. DM!) If not, you need to examine why. Take a look at the other players. Are they happy about this uber character stealing the show constantly? Chances are, no. Perhaps you can all talk together as a group.

    OTOH, killing off the character is not the way to go. (The player can get a little bitter by this.) Also, hindering them is not the way to go either. (More bitter players.)

    Usually in this case it is best to just say to heck with it, put the "campaign" on pause, and start over with some other cool idea. Leave the character be, and every once and a while dust off that character sheet and play a session with him when you both feel like being ludicrous.

    Can you imagine that this character is only around the mid level range? I shudder to think what it would be like in the higher level ranges. If you play it out every once in a while, you could find out.

    Better yet, have your other buddies have free reign with creating some badass characters. When you are having an off night, (Like a TPK) then you could yank out those sheets and kick some major arse!

    Kinda goes with the same lines as an all evil campaign. Fun to do sometimes, but not all the time.

    Better still, make your player feel like nothing is lost by dropping hints to the party about this freakishly strong warrior they have heard about in a distant land that is nothing short of a God.

    Sandeman
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  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronPriest
    thus far, everything said i am in full agreement with and am currently working on the only thing i have to stop and point out is the AoO

    if you have combat reflexes, with it you get the total six attacks, and you use double weapons, you use both weapons in one attack, meaning you are technically hitting twice. add the Improved two weapon fighting, and you get a third attack at a larger penalty. so thats three strikes in one attack. so if you have a AoO with +5 from your dex, you get six attacks, and each attack=three strikes, so its 18 strikes

    or so that is what im getting from what i've read.

    other that that, im probably going to start a new campaign soon, as soon as i can make my players get the idea.
    Two weapon fighting gives you one (1) extra attack per round. The Improved version of this feat gives you a second, and the Greater version of this feat gives you a third. Those are standard attacks for a Full attack action, not AOO. So this character has a Dex of 20 or 21, Combat reflexes (+5 AOO), +1 standard AOO = 6 AOO max. Not to mention he can only make one AOO against each opponent each round, so unless he's fighting six dragons who are all running past him that many AOO are useless to him.

    If your PC is wielding a double-weapon in each hand he doesn't get two attacks with each, just one a piece and his off-hand penalties would be higher.
    FG II Full license holder.

  5. #15
    Ok another issue you mentioned was they are critting against their enemy's a lot. You do realize that to get a crit you need to actually roll that number on the die? If the weapon crits on 19-20 X2 the die needs to say 19 or 20 not the full result of the attack.


    Another thing that could help is undead. Immune to physical attack and permenant ability score draining. However I don't suggest to just arbitrarily through them at your party. A better solution would be to get the players to agree to a 20 attribute instead.

    Here is a die roll solution that we have used for a while choose one of the following methods:

    1. Roll two white and 1 red die. On the two white die reroll ones and twos. on the red die 1-3 = 5 & 4-6 = 6. This effectively puts the range of ability scores rolled from 11-18.

    2. Roll 4 dice. Reroll ones. Pick highest 3.

    I personally like the first method because it has a better chance of guarenteeing that the PCs will be playable and fun.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Geeshu
    Two weapon fighting gives you one (1) extra attack per round. The Improved version of this feat gives you a second, and the Greater version of this feat gives you a third. Those are standard attacks for a Full attack action, not AOO. So this character has a Dex of 20 or 21, Combat reflexes (+5 AOO), +1 standard AOO = 6 AOO max. Not to mention he can only make one AOO against each opponent each round, so unless he's fighting six dragons who are all running past him that many AOO are useless to him.

    If your PC is wielding a double-weapon in each hand he doesn't get two attacks with each, just one a piece and his off-hand penalties would be higher.
    Hmmm...

    It looks like a confusion is happening here with the BAB attacks progression, perhaps that is why you all are seeing that there is so many attack here. At 10th level, a fighter should only have a base attacks of +10/+5, one extra for two weapon fighting, one extra for improved two weapon, and one extra for Greater improved two weapon fighting. (Which he would not have at 10th level anyway.) So even with greater two weapon fighting, the guy will only attack at +8/+3/+0/-5 as a base. Weapon focus will increase this to +9/+4/+1/-4, Str will increase this to +21/+16/+13/+8.

    Damage for the two axes will be as follows:

    d6+13(+15 with favored enemy, + whatever the magical bonus is, has to be at least +1), and an extra 2d6 damage to a dragon. So, about an average of 16 damage per hit, 18 with favored enemy, and 22 with a dragon. Not looking so hot now, is he? On a crit it becomes more troublesome, but fighting a dragon, he could average about 66 damage.

    So look at most creatures in that range of EL. (Should be around 6-11ish). A red dragon's AC will be 24 before any enhancements. It also has an 8d10 Fire Breath, and can cast spells at 3rd level. To further make it fun, the dragon can sunder.... With a Str of 29 before enhancements, could be about even.

    Oh, yes, do not forget that the character is using a light weapon, which would afford a -4 penalty to that as well. Goodbye special dragon axe.

    Also, the critical threat range would only be 19-20 with the feats and the keen function, because these effects do not stack. This would reduce the chances of an effective critical, because the dragon's AC is pretty high. (And this ranger would have to roll a natural 19 in order to get it.)

    Yes, the ranger seems to be an uber powerful build, but some things you are ruling on are no longer existing. Take ambidexterity. Out with the 3.0 rules.

    and a note: You could get more than one attack of opportunity from the dragon in a round, if it did something different to provoke the attack each time.

    Sandeman
    Last edited by kalmarjan; June 30th, 2006 at 18:55.
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  7. #17
    Now, lets look at how combat would go here with this "uber" build.

    This ranger does not have reach, so he needs to be adjacent to the foe to do any damage.

    Assuming we are not talking power attack, and he has the bane weapon vs dragons, and dragons are his favored enemy:

    His attack array will be this:

    +21/+16/+13/+8

    At the CR level matching the party, the dragon (juvenile) would have an AC of 29, so chances are he will hit 2.5 times on average. (This is spanning over rounds, so I am assuming an average of a 10 roll.)

    Without a critical here, we are looking at 44 average damage.

    With a crit on one, it will raise up to 66 damage, a crit on both will raise it up to 88 damage on average. (Highly unlikely, as the player would have to roll a natural 19-20 on both rolls.)

    The juvenile dragon OTOH, would not be wading into combat first. Chances are it will soften up the ranger with a breath weapon attack first. The breath weapon is 8d10 damage. (Or an average of 44 damage, 34 if the ranger has resist elements cast on him, and a DC save of 22. So no damage if he saves) A ranger will have an average of 60 HP, or 100 plus Con. (So lets say 100 HP for sake of argument.)

    If he does not save, he is down to 56 HP, if he saves, he is still okay.

    Now we are looking at the creature attacking. He has a bite, 2 claws, wing attack and a tail slap.Plus it has 2 extra feats to consider. Multi attack and Hover would be ones to throw at the party, effectively nerfing the ability of the ranger to attack. (Albeit only at -2 to attack.)

    Attack range for the dragon:

    +24/+22/+22/+22

    Damage:
    Bite: 2d6+9, 2 claws: 1d8+4, Wing Attack: 1d6+4, Tail Slap: 1d8+13

    You said their AC was 19-20, so each is pretty much guarenteed a hit, unless the dragon rolls a 1. Plus, the bite has reach, so the dragon does not really need to come withing range of the ranger. He could wait so that the ranger would have to come to him, and get one of those fantastic AoO. (Wouldn't that just take the wind out of his sails..)

    Average damage for the dragon.... 47 damage with all attacks. With criticals, well.... you get the picture.

    If this character is hunting for dragons, well he is going to be in for a rude awakening. Granted, this is just if the dragon was facing off with the ranger alone. For sure the party would have an edge to the encounter, but all in all, having the high Str does give a little bit of an advantage, but only for a one trick pony like this. The whole picture is what is important.

    So, there you have it.
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  8. #18
    45? You gotta be kidding me.
    If you are new to DMing then I'd recommend that you stick with the basics. Don't use any 'house rules' at all. Just run with the rules in the PHB/DMG.

  9. #19
    as far as criticals go the kid has some god awful amazing luck. he has imrpoved critical and his axe has keen, so the threat range is 15-20, and he almost always gets in that range. i dont know why but luck favors him in every goddamn encounter.

    well, ive talked them into a brand new campaign, and to keep them from slitting my throat, i told them we'll play this one when they want to **** around.
    the house rule is being modified so that 1,1,1=20
    now that ive got some down time and have re-read the two wpn combat feats, i understand what im doing wrong with that and if that particular player is going to go down that path again, ill be ready with the numbers to quickly correct the flawed attempt.
    all in all first DMing experience has been an excellent opportunity to learn new things and how NOT to do things, especially when i can consult a whole bunch of other DMs.

    now, that entire experimental campaign (which is what ill be labeling it from here on out) was played using only the three core rulebooks, two of them 3.5 and the PHB only 3.0 (i need to buy the PHB 3.5 soon, like yesterday preferably -.-) ive since then come into possession of books with a hell of alot more prestige classes, and in the new campaign, my players will obviously want to spread out from just being a ranger or barbarian or fighter. they were looking at some stuff, and they brought up a question that while i was a player i didnt really think about, and now that im DMing i cant remember for the life of me

    im going to use an example real quick:
    a monk at lvl 15 has an attack bonus of 11/6/1
    they want to go into warshaper because they are a natural lycanthrope
    now, thats easy, no big deal

    but then (this is the question they asked and i remember distinctly answering them once before when we were all playing and someone else DMing, but now i cant remember and its frustrating the hell out of me) they asked me if the base attack bonus and saves of the warshaper stacked with our current ones, or if they were there in case your original was lower.
    now, im fairly certain that you add the bonus to your attack bonus, because one of the prereqs of a warshaper is a BaB of 4, and the BaB granted by the fifth and final Warshaper level is only 3. but ill be entirely honest, they've got my brains confused to hell because of that.
    Last edited by TheIronPriest; July 1st, 2006 at 22:11.

  10. #20
    as far as criticals go the kid has some god awful amazing luck. he has imrpoved critical and his axe has keen, so the threat range is 15-20, and he almost always gets in that range. i dont know why but luck favors him in every goddamn encounter.
    See, this is what I am talking about. The improved critical and the Keen ability of the axe do not stack!. Check pg 95 of the PHB and you will see that the effects of the feat do not stack with the effects of the keen edge spell. EDIT - Just realized you are playing 3.0...

    but then (this is the question they asked and i remember distinctly answering them once before when we were all playing and someone else DMing, but now i cant remember and its frustrating the hell out of me) they asked me if the base attack bonus and saves of the warshaper stacked with our current ones, or if they were there in case your original was lower.
    now, im fairly certain that you add the bonus to your attack bonus, because one of the prereqs of a warshaper is a BaB of 4, and the BaB granted by the fifth and final Warshaper level is only 3. but ill be entirely honest, they've got my brains confused to hell because of that.
    I think I know what you are asking here.

    Check out the multi classing section in the PHB pg 59-61.

    Basically you are adding the BAB and the Saves together for each. Not really stacking, but adding together.

    Hope that helps you out. And believe me, you will learn a lot more. I still learn something every session I play. (And I am going on 20 years of playing this addict... er I mean... game )

    And please, buy the 3.5 edition, or at least go here:

    http://www.d20srd.org/

    It wont give you creation info, but it will update you at least until you get the current edition.

    I see now that you are playing 3.0. Now for all reading this: This example, while a little bit extreme, shows you why the ranger was redone in 3.5. The improved critical was overhauled as well. As for a Str of 45 for a 10th level character, it is not really that hard to get if you try hard enough...

    Sandeman
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    I've had FG for so LONG I DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE IT!

    But I'm learning!

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