5E Character Create Playlist
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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaradakar View Post
    Moon Wizard, Fantasy Grounds with purchased books IMO should be a full-fledged character management tool like DND Beyond, otherwise why am I paying for books I already own both physically (and digitally with DND Beyond) for the 3rd time?
    As has been mentioned in this thread already - you can't compare DnDB with FG - they provide different functionality. Yes, they use the same WotC data, but they use it differently.

    To take your example - because FG contains all of the books it should provide fully fledged character management. Therefore, because DnDB provides all of the adventures, it should provide fully fledged adventure running - providing all of the functionality of a VTT. But DnDB doesn't and it doesn't claim to provide that functionality - so why would someone expect that functionality? Neither does FG claim that it's a fully fledged character management tool - so, in the same vein, why would someone expect that functionality?

    As has already been mentioned- I recommend you adjust your expectations of what FG does based off what FG claims it does - not what you expect it to do. If you're looking for a fully fledged VTT then invest the time to learn how to use it - it has a lot of advanced functionality and that has to be learned, no matter how good any interface is. If you're looking for a fully fledged character management application then I suggest you look elsewhere. No harm, no foul - it's just not what Fantasy Grounds is designed to do, or claims to do.
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  2. #12
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    First, since you can't see me, my facial expression, or hear my tone, please understand their is no animosity here

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaradakar View Post
    Thanks LordEntrails. I'm not giving up yet (I have 30 days) and do plan to put in some substantial effort into learning.
    Good to hear, I think once you start learning the flow of FG you will learn new things quickly.

    As a designer and professional developer of games, I'm going to have to disagree on idea that there is 'various approaches', there are clearly best practices and providing affordances so the end user can easily learn how to use a tool/software without having to watch videos and or read an instruction manual. Games on a whole have to teach a player how to play them all the while entertaining them and make things intuitive both from gameplay/controls/design aspect as well as the user interface. Fantasy Grounds could use a massive overhaul in this department.
    Always nice to have have another application/software/IT professional on the boards, their are dozens of us, many with many decades of experience. But, understand, FG is not a game. And software games often have a very different development and support lifecycle than collaboration applications that use a database do (which a VTT is). Even most game engines are obsolete and replaced with new ones in a fraction of the lifespan of FG.

    As for an overhaul of the UI, as others have said. It's known and it's desired. But you also have to understand that this is a niche application that doesn't make millions of dollars. It doesn't have a dozen developers working on it full time (or even part-time). Think of it this way, if you had written and released Doom (1993) and you had to maintain that game, adding new capabilities, yet constantly maintaining backward compatibility, not only to all the DLC you create, but to community created DLC as well for 20+ years, and do it with 1-2 developers. Would Doom 2018 still have remnants of Doom 1993? Of course

    (Now, it's not impossible, Smiteworks is in the process of doing this, FGU, and they have invested (from what they say) over 10k man hours to FGU. And they have invested much of the profits derived from their licensing of 5E into hiring a developer who works full time on FGU.)

    To put it in RPG terms Champions Vs D&D, one is easy to learn and easy to play. The other requires a great deal more investment/learning. I'm not against learning and putting an investment in, but it should _not_ be this hard.
    Ideally, FG wouldn't be hard to learn. But again, it depends on the person. I think I DM'd my first session after 2-3 hours setting up my campaign and the learning curve for the basics was minimal. Maybe it's because I'm old enough I get how older interfaces work

    Moon Wizard, Fantasy Grounds with purchased books IMO should be a full-fledged character management tool like DND Beyond, otherwise why am I paying for books I already own both physically (and digitally with DND Beyond) for the 3rd time? Do you have any suggestions for incorporating a hybrid of FG and DND Beyond into a game?
    FG has never been, and the developers are quite clear that they do not intend, a full fledged character builder. It's a VTT. It's not advertised as a character builder, even though many of us use it that way without complaint. Why you paid/bought what you did, is only a question you can answer :0 Many people on here have all three like you do. And many are like me, we've only bought 5E products in FG. I have no need for a physical book, nor does DDB give me anything of value (IMO) compared to FG. Heck, many people on the forums here also pay for other VTTs as well, using each for what they feel is strongest. Me, I just find one tool that does the things that are important to me and make do with the things it doesn't do strongest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaradakar View Post
    Yes! Thank you Talyn! So fill me in, are we on the Unity version? Or is this still legacy? I think, if they would spend multiple sprints purely addressing UI/Usability they could end up with a product that would be much easier to use and that would ultimately translate to more people using it (which would then turn into more sales).
    I think Talyn has pointed you to the right thread. But you have to understand the business and resource realities of FG. It does not have a dozen developers who can break out the different parts and work uninterrupted.

    Also, SW it exceptional at supporting the current product (weekly DLC updates), plus roughly quarterly new functionality.

    Sure, their is a huge opportunity for improvements. And discussing them is great. Also, check out the wishlist; https://fg2app.idea.informer.com for some of the idea that have already been suggested, discussed and voted on. Do note that the default filter is based on votes, so the really old stuff shows up first. That and a lot of ideas there have already been incorporated but aren't marked closed.

    Not sure where the thread is, but their is a long one on the UI, talking about tabbed windows and all sorts of stuff. You might enjoy reading and even re-awakening that thread.

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  3. #13
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    Having used this software for a long time I have spent a lot of time trying to think of better ways to do things in the UI.
    Ultimately I keep coming back to the way its done now is actually pretty good.
    When you sit at the table with real books, 87 book marks, 23 loose leaf pages, 8 maps, 6 dozen minis and who knows how many post it notes... and you realise that everything in FG is pretty much within 3-4 clicks once you stop fighting the interface its pretty darn good.
    Roleplaying games are complex. The volume of links and references and connections and links and everything else are maintained very well in FG.
    Right clicking context menus are pretty commonplace in complex software.
    This is complex software doing a complex job.

    The same way that you didnt sit down at the table with your first rpg and tried to play it without having read anything before you need to spend some time learning this.

    Could it better? Of course. Changing UI is incredibly complex and it not always successful.

  4. #14

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    Some people like to think that MicroSoft knows quite a bit about UI, and their choices should be copied by other software. I disagree.


  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mlesnews View Post
    Not to nitpick but this struck me as somewhat odd, I could see if someone was not computer savvy or did not work in IT, being totally flummoxed by the Fantasy Grounds User Interface.
    After developing games for 19 years, my tolerance for awkward and archaic user interfaces that don't follow modern design principles is relatively low. I also have to deal with consent state of 'in development' tools as a content creator so when it comes to a paid product not in beta, I do expect a great deal. Also it's that same attitude that some of our previous developers used to take, the "Oh, it's not that bad you just have to learn hidden feature here and preform these 10 steps" that in reality, is bad process and prevents users from being optimal/succesful. Discover-ability (often via user interface) is a huge thing as it allows a user to explore and ultimately succeed in the task they were attempting to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlesnews View Post
    Again, YMMV but trying to compare FG to DDB is apples and oranges, FG is a Virtual Table-top application and the other is a Web/Cloud-based portal/resource. While the official game content and resources are identical as can be expected, Fantasy Grounds is not globally searchable via search engine like DDB. There are more than several ways to go about character creation in FG, pre-gen characters, random pc generators and tables, manual creation, etc. Personally, I found Fantasy Grounds College giving classes which staff will teach hands-on and step by step to be immensely helpful, particularly to those of us either new to FG, D&D (any TTRPG), or both.
    (Zacchaeus beat me to it! :P) Any suggestions, ideas and feedback for new and upcoming Fantasy Grounds Unity should look into the following thread.
    https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...light=FG+Unity

    ### These links contain what I consider the quickest and best way to learn Fantasy Grounds and play D&D.
    https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...-and-then-play!
    https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...ul-information
    I'm not wanting the web based searching that DND beyond has or the access from any location (or device with web browsing), I understand those are feature of it's platform. Character creation on the other had is ultimately accessing the same data but instead of a smart character sheet conforming to user choices and showing them what options the end user has available to them, they now have to know, not only what the options are but which book/data it is in. It's very much "what I'd have to do if using a pen and paper and physical books", which at that point I feel we're losing out on the many advantages that the digital medium should be using. Does that make sense? I had expected manual character creation to be more robust than it is.

    Thanks for the links and information, I will check those out!
    Last edited by Jaradakar; August 11th, 2018 at 06:30.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    First, since you can't see me, my facial expression, or hear my tone, please understand their is no animosity here


    Good to hear, I think once you start learning the flow of FG you will learn new things quickly.


    Always nice to have have another application/software/IT professional on the boards, their are dozens of us, many with many decades of experience. But, understand, FG is not a game. And software games often have a very different development and support lifecycle than collaboration applications that use a database do (which a VTT is). Even most game engines are obsolete and replaced with new ones in a fraction of the lifespan of FG.

    As for an overhaul of the UI, as others have said. It's known and it's desired. But you also have to understand that this is a niche application that doesn't make millions of dollars. It doesn't have a dozen developers working on it full time (or even part-time). Think of it this way, if you had written and released Doom (1993) and you had to maintain that game, adding new capabilities, yet constantly maintaining backward compatibility, not only to all the DLC you create, but to community created DLC as well for 20+ years, and do it with 1-2 developers. Would Doom 2018 still have remnants of Doom 1993? Of course

    (Now, it's not impossible, Smiteworks is in the process of doing this, FGU, and they have invested (from what they say) over 10k man hours to FGU. And they have invested much of the profits derived from their licensing of 5E into hiring a developer who works full time on FGU.)


    Ideally, FG wouldn't be hard to learn. But again, it depends on the person. I think I DM'd my first session after 2-3 hours setting up my campaign and the learning curve for the basics was minimal. Maybe it's because I'm old enough I get how older interfaces work



    FG has never been, and the developers are quite clear that they do not intend, a full fledged character builder. It's a VTT. It's not advertised as a character builder, even though many of us use it that way without complaint. Why you paid/bought what you did, is only a question you can answer :0 Many people on here have all three like you do. And many are like me, we've only bought 5E products in FG. I have no need for a physical book, nor does DDB give me anything of value (IMO) compared to FG. Heck, many people on the forums here also pay for other VTTs as well, using each for what they feel is strongest. Me, I just find one tool that does the things that are important to me and make do with the things it doesn't do strongest.


    I think Talyn has pointed you to the right thread. But you have to understand the business and resource realities of FG. It does not have a dozen developers who can break out the different parts and work uninterrupted.

    Also, SW it exceptional at supporting the current product (weekly DLC updates), plus roughly quarterly new functionality.

    Sure, their is a huge opportunity for improvements. And discussing them is great. Also, check out the wishlist; https://fg2app.idea.informer.com for some of the idea that have already been suggested, discussed and voted on. Do note that the default filter is based on votes, so the really old stuff shows up first. That and a lot of ideas there have already been incorporated but aren't marked closed.

    Not sure where the thread is, but their is a long one on the UI, talking about tabbed windows and all sorts of stuff. You might enjoy reading and even re-awakening that thread.
    Oh btw, I never did read any animosity into your post. I found it super helpful. I hope mine are not coming off as to mad crazed emotional (they're not) just trying to be matter of fact.

    Ah okay so shoe-string budget and more than likely a frankenstein code base due to it's long history. Gotcha. At the game company I'm at we're still using the same engine after 11 years, but it's been heavily heavily modified and in some cases completely re-written. Granted we also have 70-100 full time employees. I had no idea FG's scale of employees was so small (yikes).

    As to my reason for purchase? Primarily as a virtual table top. I was gaming remotely from California to Seattle just using FaceTime with an ipad. I was the only one virtual while everyone else gathered physically. Recently physical host who lived centrally to everyone (and had the great man cave) decided he did not want to play any more. That has left our group scrambling for solutions, with the complication of me being virtual. After lots of deliberation we decided it was time to try going pure virtual. We had dabbled in Roll20 (and I'm having some second thoughts as to maybe that would be a better choice) but at least two of our group hates subscriptions models and FG's one time purchase appealed way more. So will see, we're all currently deep diving into FG.
    Last edited by Jaradakar; August 11th, 2018 at 06:32.

  7. #17
    The FG UI is pretty bad, unless you're older, then it feels homely. Its software is circa early 2000s and hasn't changed much since except for different layouts and ruleset options/improvements. Overall the interface remains unchanged.

    I'm not an FG cheerleader encouraging you to buy in, so here's my quick take:

    1. The UI is anceint, I'm sorry but it is. It was great perhaps in 2005 but today it's more an eyesore. Many of the old guard will defend this but if an impartial individual compares this to the more flexible modern interfaces; it's more an adherence to nostalgia and familiarity than usability. It's not so much windows 7 vs windows 10, it's windows XP vs window 7.
    2. FG is more of an automation tool, it's not newbie friendly at all. I'd recommend starting with a more "light" VTT like Astral VTT or Roll20 and once you need more automation options, come back to FG.
    3. The complexity for FG bellies more on the preparation side of things. You need to setup encounters and map pins to keep everything together and organized. On the flip side, running is easier party due to FG automation and prep at a 50% split.
    4. Not friendly for improvisational style play as drawing tools are practically absent save for the basic pixel pencil. If this is an important part of your game you may need to direct to Astral, R20, or MapTool.
    5. FGU is a more than a pipe-dream; but still very distant as it has continually been pushed back for years. Don't buy FG unless you like what you see currently. I wouldn't make a purchase based on the 'promise' of a better system later.
    6. FG allows for more customization than other VTTs. If you want to customize the look and feel of your table as well as make inherent behavior changes to the rule-set, or perhaps even make custom tools. No other VTT (currently) allows this kind of monkey wrenching. R20 comes close, but is handler based and the performance of their scripts is dependent on how the server feels that day. D20pro has similar rule-set level changes but it's community is near dead.


    I develop operating system frameworks for embedded linux devices (including android) so I've seen my share for user interfaces both at desktop size, and hand-held.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken L View Post
    The FG UI is pretty bad, unless you're older, then it feels homely. Its software is circa early 2000s and hasn't changed much since except for different layouts and ruleset options/improvements. Overall the interface remains unchanged.

    I'm not an FG cheerleader encouraging you to buy in, so here's my quick take:

    1. The UI is anceint, I'm sorry but it is. It was great perhaps in 2005 but today it's more an eyesore. Many of the old guard will defend this but if an impartial individual compares this to the more flexible modern interfaces; it's more an adherence to nostalgia and familiarity than usability. It's not so much windows 7 vs windows 10, it's windows XP vs window 7.
    2. FG is more of an automation tool, it's not newbie friendly at all. I'd recommend starting with a more "light" VTT like Astral VTT or Roll20 and once you need more automation options, come back to FG.
    3. The complexity for FG bellies more on the preparation side of things. You need to setup encounters and map pins to keep everything together and organized. On the flip side, running is easier party due to FG automation and prep at a 50% split.
    4. Not friendly for improvisational style play as drawing tools are practically absent save for the basic pixel pencil. If this is an important part of your game you may need to direct to Astral, R20, or MapTool.
    5. FGU is a more than a pipe-dream; but still very distant as it has continually been pushed back for years. Don't buy FG unless you like what you see currently. I wouldn't make a purchase based on the 'promise' of a better system later.
    6. FG allows for more customization than other VTTs. If you want to customize the look and feel of your table as well as make inherent behavior changes to the rule-set, or perhaps even make custom tools. No other VTT (currently) allows this kind of monkey wrenching. R20 comes close, but is handler based and the performance of their scripts is dependent on how the server feels that day. D20pro has similar rule-set level changes but it's community is near dead.


    I develop operating system frameworks for embedded linux devices (including android) so I've seen my share for user interfaces both at desktop size, and hand-held.
    Thanks Ken, it's really nice to know I'm not alone! We had started to use Roll20 just to display the maps to me (I was remote) and because our GM hated drawing out things on the mat.

    Typically my play group is very character story driven. We've done lots of World of Darkness games, occasional Call of Cthulhu, The One Ring, Savage Worlds, etc. The more recent games was Fantasy Flight's Star Wars (2.5 years) and then we swapped over to D&D 5th Edition. We ended up really enjoying 5th (more than anyone thought we would). We were playing a book adventure (Curse of Strahd) and most of us through our long history of RPGing have been more homebrew snobs but now that we're older (40's) and many of us having kids, we're finding some of the book adventures are actually quite good. So continuing that theme, I'm planning on running Tomb of Annihilation next hopefully via FG. One of our players is super gungho on FG (and he's also diving in trying to learn how to use it).

  9. #19
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    I regularly run completely improvised games in FG with zero prep.
    When I run Dungeon World the entire storyline only starts being created after we are logged in and sorted out.
    I definitely do not try and create any maps inside FG though. FG has zero map creation tools and the etch-a-sketch lines are also pretty terrible.

    I grab visually pleasing images and use them at ToTM battlemaps.
    If you have not pre-prepped the session you do not need to use encounters - you can drag monsters on to the CT/Map as and when you need them.
    I play quite a few different games/systems on FG.

  10. #20
    I have DnDB and FG as well as many of the physical books. I use each product differently, as each is a different product. I have a ton of fun learning what each product can and cannot do. I have fun playing the game using a mix of resources. Maybe I have FG up and running with a map I am walking my players through and they have DnDB with their characters up and running. Maybe I have to look in a book quickly to see a item. I run campaigns at home with my children and I run campaigns at my school for our DnD club. I also play the board games once in a while (Ravenloft or Ashardalon). It is an entirely enjoyable experience and I can't wait to play. In the meantime, I draw maps, I paint minis and I do research and learn more about this great game. It is a game and I love playing it. And all you wonderful folks here on this forum are helpful, respectful, and are part of a great community. I have yet to experience anything negative here. You have always answered my questions quickly and accurately. At the end of the day, Kudos to FG and the developers for providing a wonderful product that will continue to grow and improve. Your countless hours of hard work have not gone unnoticed by this user. Thanks!

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