Change My Mind: Invest in FG, need top 5e capability but also OSR/ShadowofDemonLord

[Gray Geist]

Hello everyone!

Several weeks ago I posted on multiple subreddits regarding my internal debate on whether to choose Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 at my main VTT. A majority of users there recommended Roll20 but some strong advocates for FG also came along and offered confident praise and pointed me toward the community here which was said to be very active and helpful, so here I am. I am sure this debate has come up time and time again, but here I offer you a little twist.

Let's cut to the chase: Between Fantasy Grounds and Roll20, which supports OSR/Shadow of the Demon Lord better, if at all?

An introduction that goes back in time is in order: I have been DMing a game of homebrew DND 5e for 5-6 people for over a year now. I absolutely love the versatility of the systems but what really makes it stick with me is the sheer amount of content that fans create, some of which is bad sure, but some of which is brilliant. With that said, about four months ago I began researching two other RPG systems that I absolutely love the sound of:

1. Lamentations of the Flame Princess
2. Shadow of the Demon Lord

I now own these systems and both match my DM and world style, which is very Dark Souls-esque but I have not tried either...yet. Fast forward to now and one of our beloved players is leaving to California and potentially not coming back (it's for work, and it's up to her so we shall see). Upon hearing this news two of my most tenured players (45 years experience between the two of them) were very sad as they like her very much and through some sort of miracle began suddenly open to the idea of gaming online with her to make our games work and not exclude her. Before I go on let me state that I believe there's something special about sitting around a table physically with your friends to game but I've been itching to try to play online as well and these two were the biggest roadblocks to that.

So now we get to the question above. We all know both support DND 5e quite well but what about other content they don't advertise as front page? I am aware of the power of Fantasy Grounds and have heard horror stories of Roll20 requiring you to build macros to make it automated but those may be untrue. On the other hand, I have heard that Roll20 is more open platform and some fans of LotFP and SotDL have created some sort of "mod" for it but perhaps not Fantasy Grounds?

With that said some users responded on reddit and one stated something that had me worried:

"Both can handle both of those systems fine.

For me, though, there's not even a competition between Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Fantasy Grounds has the same problem most other VTT's have, which is that it is software that you run from your own computer. Everyone has to download, install, and connect, creating many opportunities for tech issues to pop up. The number of sessions I lost to tech supporting people's issues is unacceptable to me."

Another user responded to the above stating, "I use Fantasy Grounds a lot for online play and never had any issues and the only issues other people have is when their internet is not stable. The only technical issue one may face is to open a port on their router, some routers will automatically open it and some won't. "

So in the end it was a wash but is this true?

My mission statement for this: I want a virtual tabletop that will play DND 5e better than the other but also have the versatility or ability to play LotFP and/or SotDL if I decide to switch. I do not want to invest $200-400 (which I will be getting the top of the line content) and then have to switch. I am interested in a VTT because of the ease of use and ability to lay down exquisite (i.e. immersive) maps, monsters, etc and not worry about tracking math (for the most part) which will lend more time for me to immerse my players and myself. Furthermore, having the power & speed of a computer at my fingertips during play will be very useful as I currently use an iPad Pro at the table linked to all my files and it's fine but I'm just faster on my PC.

Are either of these major VTT’s out there useable? Perhaps only one is useable and that’s for LotFP? Or perhaps the opposite is true and SotDL is the one with the mod support?

If you need to clarify something before answering fully please feel free to ask and I will answer to the best of my ability, though keep in mind I am no knowledge/content expert for either VTT platform.

[damned]

Welcome Gray Geist

5e is supported better on this platform than any other and by a good margin.
There is no specific Shadow of the Demon Lord ruleset at this time. A little birdie tells e someone is neck deep in coding one just now but until that comes to fruition its best not to count on it being available.
In the meantime Im pretty sure that MoreCore supports all the SotDL rolls.

Im not familiar with the LotFP rules... what are the primary dice mechanics?

[LordEntrails]

Welcome

I don't have SotDL or LotFP experience so I won't comment on those systems. I will say that I have played games that have no dedicated rule system and have been quite happy with using one of the 'generic' (CoreRPG, MoreCore) for those games.

Let me make a few observations and point out a few things for you to consider. Some of this is what I learned when I did my comparison a couple years ago, some is what I have noticed or observed since then. I will say I have found a lot of incorrect information and poorly supported opinions out there, so make sure you are clear on what's important to you.

FG is a Client-Server architecture, Roll20 is a Software as a Service. An important implication of this to me meant that everything I create (in FG) is stored local. No one can ever take that away from me. I am not dependent upon the terms of service, availability, or financial stability of anyone but myself. Don't get me wrong, there are pro's and con's to each, but that to me was close to non-negotiable.

Cost; If this is a concern to you, look at the full price of both over your expected usage time. For me, FG is much lower cost for what I wanted to buy and for how long I plan to use it.

SmiteWorks, the company that owns and runs FG, from my observations and experience, is exceptional. Their are extremely customer focused, and continue to make major re-investments in their products with a focus on next generation VTT technology.

The community and forums here are my favorite forum anywhere. Friendly, helpful, active, and open. Want to discuss the benefits of Roll20, Maptools or any other competitor over FG? You won't be the first, and you won't provoke a flame war either (nor will you get banned, like I've heard can happen at other places). Speaking of flame wars, you won't often find them here. I can think of 2 in the years I've been here, and both were one-sided by a single person and very short lived.

I've noticed quite a few dedicated GMs switch from Roll20 to FG. But haven't heard of any going the other way. Maybe that's the circles I run in (though I think those are pretty wide).

Networking can be an issue with a client-server architecture. If you ask for help in anyway except the most obnoxious way, there are many network gurus here who will step up to help you out. And, if you are someone not able to find an acceptable solution, did I say how customer focused SmiteWorks is? 30 day money back guarantee. So, even if you go buy the ultimate license (which is on sale for another day or two) and the complete D&D bundle and can't get it to work for you, they'll refund your money. Not that I suggest you do that, you can completely test the network connectivity with the demo license, but hey, the option is there.

Someone who plays one SotDL or LotFP will probably drop by shortly to tell you what they think about playing those games. Any other questions, just ask.

[Ken L]

It doesn't really matter. FG is more for those with the established systems as it's tricky to host relying on 'automation ' of rule-sets that aren't available, even something as simple as a character sheet doesn't exist for many of these games.

FG has become more of an 'alternative' scene where as roll20 is more 'main stream' The difficulty curves for on-boarding new players and getting new players is on roll20's side as they have a larger player base, where as on FG you need to source multiple LFG locations to game advertise enough bodies.

In short, FG is easier for established groups who can learn the ropes of the platform, Roll20 better for herding internet cats, and receiving them. Internet cats however are very flighty. I'm not going to write some conversion essay akin the the meme here.

[Simpe]

Hello and welcome to the forums!

I'd like to give my point of view on your situation.

I joined the FG community fairly recently. I'm currently implementing a full ruleset in the FG engine, on top of the standard CoreRPG Ruleset. I have done a little checkup on roll20 and weighted the different pro's/con's of the different versions, out of a developer perspective. The API's are quite different and even though roll20 is in jscript and maybe a bit simpler, it's so much less powerful than what FG supports. Yes, the powerfulness of the FG api means that it is much more complex, but instead you have access to a lot of already written rulesets, plus the source to a few of them. Most of the time you will probably be satisfied with the CoreRPG or MoreCore rulesets and maybe only add a mod to one of these, if you are interested in having your custom die rolls or whatever it takes.

Now, I had some issues pretty early with understanding how to implement a ruleset so I joined the discord server that people here use. Boy what a community! I've been asking questions both here and in discord, trying to resolve issues that I encounter and the help has been massive. Most of the time several people weigh in and try to look at the issue from several angles, giving me not only a way to solve the problem but a realization about how to best do things in order to get a stable ruleset / product.

I've JUST started looking into using FG as an actual tool when i DM. I only DM in real life but the aid of using this tool in that situation as well is pure awesomeness. If you just learn the formatted-text implementation that you use for taking notes etc, you'll quickly be able to make a really comprehensive way of taking notes and tracking all the information you need about your players. Just like previously pointed out here, I've already noticed the activeness of the developers and these are people that really love what they're doing - and they're constantly updating and adding both content and features into the engine.

Cheers,
Simon

[mrrockitt]

I'm afraid I also can't comment on whether the systems you wish to run are supported on one or the other but as a convert from Roll20 myself only a month ago I can honestly say there is no way I would switch back to it now. I don't hate Roll20, it's a great system and good luck to them but it's FG all the way for me.

I will immediately say that I am no expert, (as you will quickly realise), but the way that FG automates rolls and abilities for you is so much better than making all the macro's by hand in Roll20! I also much prefer the look of the interface and the control it allows you over games. When creating content as a DM I find FG so much more stable than Roll20, that might have just been my internet connection but the server-client set up means you don't have to worry about that whilst setting up.

As to the cost, the fact that Roll20 is available for *free* makes everyone say how expensive FG is. This is not true however in my experience, if you want to buy official D&D books/modules/campaigns they are more expensive on Roll20. Also if you want much storage space and the few tools Roll20 offers you will almost certainly need to upgrade to the two paid options. Again, the server-client option means the content you can store and present to your players is limited only by the size of your hard drive!

It is true that FG is more complicated for beginners but once you get the hang of it it's a much better system I think.

I also have found the community to be helpful and Smiteworks Support are great too. Not to say the Roll20 guys were not, but FG just edge it in this category for me

[damned]

MoreCore was designed to allow people to play other games that dont have a specific ruleset. It has 50 or 60 rolls and fairly flexible character sheets and combat tracker. Its free. Ive played a bunch of different game systems using MoreCore.

[ddavison]

Welcome Gray Geist.

We don't have an official ruleset for Shadow of the Demon Lord but we have an agreement with place with the owner of the IP to allow for it if we can get it developed. Official rulesets are noticeably more robust and easier to run a full campaign in than a community ruleset. With that said, the generic ruleset CoreRPG that is included with FG will allow you to support the basic needs and still use most of the common features of a ruleset. Damned took this one step further by creating the MoreCORE ruleset and it enhances and makes it even easier to support otherwise unsupported systems without doing any coding.



We offer a full 30-day money back guarantee on all purchases and subscriptions from our store, so you could dive right in with a 1 month sub and/or any add-ons that struck your fancy to run it through the paces. After an evening or two of playing around with it, you'll probably have a good idea if it is going to be a good fit for your needs.

[Ram Tyr]

I've played LotFP on FG in one or two sessions. I believe the DM used the Morecore ruleset... I recall it supporting the game just fine.

[JohnD]

In my experience most of what you get on the internet in support of Roll20 contains a lot of deliberate misinformation or uninformed information about FG. A couple of videos that might be worth your time:

https://youtu.be/1gHmxi4EydE

https://youtu.be/qb-d3Zcznj4

Hopefully those work, I'm on a tablet right now with a less than ideal interface.

I've used FG for over 6 years. The rulesets I've used are listed in my signature. It is not terribly difficult to learn; just don't expect to know everything all at once. As with any powerful software program (not some browser app...) there is a learning curve - embrace it. Everything you make inmonth one you will be able to use in year 6 (I'm doing it now in fact...) so your work is never wasted.

Prep Less Play More

That's a good slogan and it's accurate.

If you want a demo of anything, let me know I'm happy to spend a couple of hours walking you through stuff.