New 3D Table Top Online project

[AlphaDecay]

In my world because sometimes we don't use a map, we just talk about the situation and dice rolls can still be made. The map is a tool not the focus. The focus is player interaction, which by and large is verbal.

[pindercarl]

It's not on the same level as TTC

Ken L, Thanks for saying so. The first thing I look for when a new 3D VTT pops on Kickstarter, or elsewhere, is are how are they handling token movement on all axes? E.g., can I place a token under the stairs, on the stairs, or on a landing above the stairs? It is a non-trivial problem and one that was difficult to solve for Tabletop Connect. To date, I haven't see any other 3D VTTs handle these scenarios.

When TTC was first prototyped, it was similar to Talespire, in that the tabletop was assembled from Hirst Arts like pieces. This was too limiting and didn't meet users expectations. There was a significant amount of re-architecting to make the changes and I was never fully satisfied with the implementation. Talespire appears to be addressing the problem by creating a pseudo 3D environment and hand-waving the rest with art style. It is a respectable choice and gives me some confidence that they have at least considered the issue before rejecting it. After a cursory overview, I give Talespire a 7 out of 10 on the will-they-ship scale. I'm watching their February stream while I work, so that opinion may shift, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

[shadzar]

The first thing I look for when a new 3D VTT pops on Kickstarter, or elsewhere, is are how are they handling token movement on all axes? E.g., can I place a token under the stairs, on the stairs, or on a landing above the stairs? ~~~ To date, I haven't see any other 3D VTTs handle these scenarios.

well there was 3d placement shown and things could be placed on it. also you could make the sub-grids on the map and rotate them on every axis. so a rotating room like in White Plume mountain, the floor could rotate, and the minis will stick to that spot where they were on the floor while it rotates. There is no "physics" to save bandwidth he said, because he doesnt want it too bloated for no reason. so object can't be knocked off tables or such like TTS and bounce around.

the video explains much more and shows the current state of what the project can do.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/258232511

[Ken L]

Aegis isn't close to what TTC could do, and I'm curious how FG is going to integrate it when they finally do.

Talespire is currently the dark horse out there as it's made by professional game devs on their free time. It's highly polished, the tools if you've seen the streams, are very well refined, and they aren't even asking for money yet.

Aegis clearly is in pre-alpha and he's asking for funding so my level of doubt is high, but he talks a good talk in terms of what he wants to accomplish. Talespire though is what I see the future of the 3d VTT looking like if they ever follow through. Given that they're all already gainly employed and they've accomplished what they have... in their free time no less, speaks volumes of their work ethic and completion potential. Their feature set will be limited to their small number of 3d assets but I can see it snowballing when their steam workshop blossoms and artists start selling 3d models at profit in the marketplace. FG I feel will be late to the 3d party but given that they have TTC, I'm curious what their answer will be outside of the automation advantage, but that's something far in the future.

Since we're on the topic of upcoming VTTs, there's also Skirmish VTT which died, but had a great concept. They're trying to rebuild for the web so I'm curious as to what will happen with them; their network model was the strongest from what I remember, but it was windows only which hurt them.

[shadzar]

Talespire though is what I see the future of the 3d VTT looking like if they ever follow through. Given that they're all already gainfully employed and they've accomplished what they have... in their free time no less, speaks volumes of their work ethic and completion potential. Their feature set will be limited to their small number of 3d assets but I can see it snowballing when their steam workshop blossoms and artists start selling 3d models at profit in the marketplace. FG I feel will be late to the 3d party but given that they have TTC, I'm curious what their answer will be outside of the automation advantage, but that's something far in the future.

thank you!

this is going to be interesting to see if either or both hit the market. i am all for top-down 2d playing for many games, but for minis games requiring LOS on all 3 axis (like 40k), a 3d render is nice thing to have. see this Talespire has the advantage on Aegis there, but depending on the depth required to code/mod Aegis still seems easiest for board games for the price (free beats even TTS on Steam).

Aegis seems complete enough already to at least play 3D chess from Star Trek:TNG, and the chess-like game C3PO and Chewy played in A New Hope. with those prospective model market as you mentioned, then Aegis could even have fully animated HeroQuest!

things to ask Kale about next week:

1. how tall can floors be placed? what is the vertical limit, how tall a tower/dungeon can one make using the sub-grids technique.
2. other than Fog of War/Dynamic Lighting that was mentioned, can AO do LOS for targeting for games like 40k where someone might shoot through or around a window (heck even D&D you have arrow slits to shoot through walls at people from the castle ramparts!)

I don't think FG can make it into the 3D market without a full redesign and discarding everything that s and building all old content from the ground up. Alone Aegis is easier to use if for no reason other than it stores its data as JSON, not pathetic XML. Python and LUA being both equally annoying, the JSON makes it easier to store and retrieve data as there is not such a convoluted schema to have to deal with as every FG ruleset has its own standards and there isnt really a standard format for any FG built game. but JSON... much easier to push and pull data to/from.

i can't find info about Talespire data files.... but i am still stuck watching the "Thriller" zombie minis video cause its really hard to not watch that over and over and over.

[ddavison]

The biggest problem with any 3D-only option is going to be the inability to release new modules and content regularly. Costs for new models of monsters are going to be prohibitive for pretty much every adventure out there in both money and time. Official D&D modules have the best chance at breaking even but even then I would doubt it unless it exponentially grows the customer base. Sword Coast Legends had an impressive amount of 3d models for what it was but even they fell far short of offering the number of monsters players would ultimately demand. They also went out of business because their revenue didn't cover their costs - licensing, development, art, etc.

[celestian]

The biggest problem with any 3D-only option is going to be the inability to release new modules and content regularly. Costs for new models of monsters are going to be prohibitive for pretty much every adventure out there in both money and time. Official D&D modules have the best chance at breaking even but even then I would doubt it unless it exponentially grows the customer base. Sword Coast Legends had an impressive amount of 3d models for what it was but even they fell far short of offering the number of monsters players would ultimately demand. They also went out of business because their revenue didn't cover their costs - licensing, development, art, etc.

I would think that for low cost version of 3D models they could use 3D tokens using 2D images. You know, like the 2D paper tokens that you print for face to face games... only virtual.

Similar to these but in the virtual space.

I've seen a few systems use them already. Easy to make and less expensive than the full 3D tokens.

Outside and Dungeon textures and objects would be a bigger problem tho... personally I'm wanting a 3D VTT that lets me use my 2d MAPS and just place walls instead of virtual lines for the "line of sight" blocked as a start. Isometric type of view (or ***-cam) with 3D walls and a couple 3D models would be pretty good start. Add positional lighting and sound... and it gets pretty immersive. Go full on like Talespire and it's pretty awesome long as I get to keep my FG automation and flexibility.

[pindercarl]

I would think that for low cost version of 3D models they could use 3D tokens using 2D images. You know, like the 2D paper tokens that you print for face to face games... only virtual.

Similar to these but in the virtual space.

I've seen a few systems use them already. Easy to make and less expensive than the full 3D tokens.

turn-order-set.jpg

I couldn't readily find a better screenshot, but "silhouette" miniatures were an option in Tabletop Connect. It is a reasonable solution for custom miniatures. 3D terrain? Yeah, that is a much bigger issue.

[ddavison]

Here is one we had from a while back.

[Bidmaron]

The bandwidth challenges for real-time 3d are also currently essentially technologically impossible unless you can afford the highest speed uplinks. The reason it works for games is because they have central servers. SW could do that, but it wouldn't be free (or at least I don't see how it could be).

There are ways around it that involve downloading textures and 3d structures outside game time, but there would still have to be a server.

I am personally not looking forward to the merge of video games and VTT. It will happen at some point, undoubtedly, but I am not convinced it is a good thing. Part of the delight of tabletop games to me personally is the theater of the mind part. I just hope we will never be compelled to use it, and I would like to applaud SW for focusing on the 2d improvements for the present.