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View Poll Results: Would you like to play-test this rule varient?

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  • Yes, I would like to play-test this rule varient.

    5 55.56%
  • No, I would not like to play-test this rule varient.

    4 44.44%
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  1. #1
    Wraith's Avatar
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    Defense over Armor class

    I have been working on a new system for defense gathered from varients thought up by others then mutated into what I call Block, Perry, and Dodge. You always see thoughs fight sences in the movies were one person attacks the hero and he blocks it with his sword then spins and cuts the person instead, well this rule set is ment to simulate this type of fighting.
    When being attack you have three choices dodge, block, and perry.

    1) Dodging is the easiest defense. You simply roll a reflex save to see if you get out of the way of the attack. You add your Dextarity Modifier, Reflex Base Save, Size, and any dodge bonuses from feats, racial abilieties, or class features.

    2) Blocking is using a sword or shield simply to get in the way of an attack. For this you roll an attack roll with the weapon or shield to see if you block the attack. If your attack roll is greater then the attackers then you block and it is resolved as a sunder attack. You add you Strength Modifier, Base Attack Bonus, Size, and any feats, racial ablilieties, or class features that add attack bonuses, or shield for that given weapon.

    3) Perring is much like blocking but if you succeed at blocking the attack then you can use an attack of opportunity to make an attack against your opponent. If the strike deals damage then the attackers turn is ended the same way as a critical failure. The same bonuses apply to this as to the block.

    I have other varients that I use in conjuction with this one to even out the balance but I wanted to get a feel for what people thought of this change before I start post the others. Just write in and let me know what you think I plan on using these varients in my up coming campaign and if out look isn't good then I will have to rethink my rules.
    See you around the table.

  2. #2
    Is that the Matthew Perry variant? (sorry, couldn't resist.)

    For dodge, since Reflex save already takes into account your dexterity modifier you are essentially doubling up your bonus.

    That being said, I do like the idea of combat variants. Keep working on this (or post more about what you have). I'm not a rules hound like many around here. I'm sure you'll get lots of good suggesstions comments as you move forward with this.
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  3. #3
    Stuart's Avatar
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    The Game of Thrones d20 has some variants that chage combat significantly. The suggestions offered by Wraith may prove cumbersome via FG ... especially for a DM ! However, I've used similar rules with Rolemaster and Elric ! ... especially the latter with a "riposte" type rule. It works nicely.

    I like the idea but could not really use it in addition to the critical hit mod's and damage/bleeding rules I am about to "inflict" (pun not intended) on my players. My groups are quite large and combat is just on the edge ofbeing too cumbersome as is ... small groups, this sort of stuff could work nicely ... let us know how it works with your groups Wraith.

    Stuart

  4. #4

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    Interesting ideas.

    Per what Gurney said, I think if you just use the base Reflex save you'll be fine. That might have been what you meant in the first place. ( I just went back and reread what you posted... you do say base save).

    My fear is that this variant would drag out combat. A lot. First you are doubling the number of dice rolls needed to conclude a fight.

    Hmmm, for 1 I'm guessing the DC you are trying to beat is the attack die roll? So if an attacker rolled a 2 + 3 for bab +3 for str and +1 for magic = 9 and you roll a 2 + 2 base reflex save +1 dex +1 dodge = 6 then he hits you?

    I was thinking you would hit less but now I'm not so sure.

    What will magic armor give you?

    I'd remove the auto-sunder from the block option. We've never tried it, but from what I've heard the sunder rule is suspect of being too easy to do. Give a bonus for blocking with a shield vs a weapon. Maybe even a bigger one for blocking ranged attacks.

    For parry does this AoO count against the limit a character can do? (I'd guess it would). If a character has combat reflexes this means he can parry and strike back at every person that attacks him that round? (or for as many as he has in dex bonus). This makes it a 'must have' feat for high dex characters.

    My quick thoughts! I'd be interested in seeing how it plays out. One thing to check: make some high (18+) characters and see how it plays. Check fighter vs fighter, fighter vs mage, high dex vs fighter and make sure they all work out ok.

    For combat options, check out Iron Heros. I played it at a game store a few weeks back... very fun! There was a whole list of combat options you can do. Basicly, you take a - in something to get a + in something else. So reduce your AC and get a + to hit, or reduce your to hit number to gain extra damage. It made fights very interesting because you had options every round. Not just 'who am I going to swing at' but 'how am I going to swing at this guy?'.

    I'm thinking about adding these combat options to our dnd game and see how they work out.

    rv

  5. #5
    Sounds nice. but I'm not too familiar with D&D rules yet. There was a skill in Neverwinter Nights that was similar to those.

    Parry

    That might already be in the core rules, but haven't noticed yet. It was a very useful skill for my rogue, and it kind of replicates the great sword fights if both attackers have the "parry mode selected". It might need some negative effects on attack rolls though.

  6. #6
    Wraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richvalle
    I think if you just use the base Reflex save you'll be fine. That might have been what you meant in the first place. ( I just went back and reread what you posted... you do say base save).
    Ya, thats what I ment you figure up your reflex save as normal then add feat and racial dodge bonuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by richvalle
    Hmmm, for 1 I'm guessing the DC you are trying to beat is the attack die roll? So if an attacker rolled a 2 + 3 for bab +3 for str and +1 for magic = 9 and you roll a 2 + 2 base reflex save +1 dex +1 dodge = 6 then he hits you?

    I was thinking you would hit less but now I'm not sure.

    What will magic armor give you?
    Yes, that is exactly what the idea is, but I'm not sure if you get hit less or more I would think it would depend on what the differnce of bonuses were. I also use a armor varient with this that makes armor have damage reducetion instead of armor class bonuses. So it doesn't make you get hit less it makes the hit's less painful just like real armor.

    Magic armor would only improve the damage reducetion and hit points of the armor. I will post this varient on a seprate thread later.
    Quote Originally Posted by richvalle
    I'd remove the auto-sunder from the block option. We've never tried it, but from what I've heard the sunder rule is suspect of being too easy to do. Give a bonus for blocking with a shield vs a weapon. Maybe even a bigger one for blocking ranged attacks.
    Well origanially you could only block with a shield and perry with a weapon. I think I might go back to that. The "auto-sunder" works better with shields, then with weapons anyway. I always think of "13th Warrior" when I think of the blocking option. I like the idea of the shield breaking apart when a huge monster hits you.
    Quote Originally Posted by richvalle
    For parry does this AoO count against the limit a character can do? (I'd guess it would). If a character has combat reflexes this means he can parry and strike back at every person that attacks him that round? (or for as many as he has in dex bonus). This makes it a 'must have' feat for high dex characters.
    Yes, that is the hole point. I always thought that some of those feats were a little unbalanced. All my characters that got that feat never got to use it, cause who would run by a halfling that just chopped down three of your friends in the previous round.
    Quote Originally Posted by richvalle
    I'm thinking about adding these combat options to our dnd game and see how they work out.
    Thank you for your feed back and you faith in my varients. I have tried it out with lots of home made characters but it lacks the flow of multi-person input when seated at a table.
    Last edited by Wraith; March 23rd, 2006 at 18:27.
    See you around the table.

  7. #7
    Wraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acmer
    Sounds nice. but I'm not too familiar with D&D rules yet. There was a skill in Neverwinter Nights that was similar to those.

    Parry

    That might already be in the core rules, but haven't noticed yet. It was a very useful skill for my rogue, and it kind of replicates the great sword fights if both attackers have the "parry mode selected". It might need some negative effects on attack rolls though.
    I looked at that link and it isn't really the same because my varient really takes the place of an armor class altogther. Your armor is then used to reduce the amount of damage you take not how meny times you are hit.

    Thanks for the imput though.
    See you around the table.

  8. #8
    The only real reason I struggle with something like this, is that it has a tendency to slow things down. One of the benefits--perhaps the only benefit, admittedly--of having everything boiled into a value called AC is that it allows combat to be resolved more quickly. i.e. when an attack falls short of a target's AC, it is assumed it was because the target moved, parried, etc., in such a way as to avoid the blow or cause said blow to be a glancing one.

    While it is less interesting, it is much quicker to resolve. I find this especially important when playing with FG where (most) people are already screaming to find ways to speed combat along.

    That all being said, I like the idea of what you're doing and plan on following your progress. It is always important to challenge paradigms and look for improvements. All of this is IMHO, of course.

    Hope this helped.
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  9. #9
    Dodging and Parrying remind me of the Palladium RPG. That was my first 'dnd' system.

    It does allow for more interesting combat and characters, but it is a lot more roll intensive, as people have mentioned.

  10. #10
    Hi all,

    My first post here. I wanted to say its nice to see such a warm community.

    I've used a parry system in my games for years and I enjoy it. However, we use a point buying system to develop chacacters that tends to favor higher damage and less HP; thus, each hit is more meaningful and combat is shorter.

    It adds a lot of excitement when a character is hit by a potentially killing blow. Its less dramatic for a DM, rolling behind a screen, to say "you're hit, you die," then to say "you're hit, roll a parry or die!". Make for memorable rolls, especially when a character make multiple parries while on the brink of death.

    Another drawback besides flow of combat is some decreased excitement when a character hits, since you have to wait for the monster's parry.

    Mainly, I prefer a parry system because it feels better. A nekked level 15 fighter should be harder to hit than a level 1 fighter in plate. Standard rules account for this problem with hit points. Although, if the flow of combat is much slower with FG, then I'll probably work the parry into AC to cut down on rolls.

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