What's Old is New

[damned]

Just curious - the publisher hasnt updated OLD in 2 years, NOW in 3 years and NEW in 4 years.
Does the same reasoning hold? Should the published put stickers on their books - hey we dont update this book any more.

Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

[jharp]

Maybe they can get permission to unlock the ruleset? @ddavidson

[HywelPhillips]

It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'm interested in running some OLD because I like its freeform magic system, but the FG support isn't there for OLD- the bits missing are the main bits I'd actually want to focus on in my planned game.

So I have bought the rulesystem, found it a bit below-par for the specifics I want, so the game didn't get played, and WOIN doesn't appear in the stats.

I know this is a smart-alec take.

There are a HUGE number of systems out there, and each one is clearly a big investment of dev time.

The curse of FG is that it supports much greater automation than most of the VTT competition - but that also makes it much more work to develop a comprehensive ruleset, I imagine? From the consumer side it makes it feel like more of a limitation when the system as implemented delivers "only" as much as a Roll20 character sheet, because we're spoiled with 5E/PF/SWADE levels of automation.

I do think it is fair to say that some systems, like WOIN, have had a decent shot and just haven't "stuck" in the FG ecosystem. I'm a big fan of playing different systems but and there are many systems on my wish-list which don't even have the workable-but-less-than-ideal level of official ruleset support that WOIN has.

Bring on PBTA in a form that makes it easy to import new games onto the same framework, Dune and sister 2d20 systems, Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Warhammer 4E with as good system support as Foundry, RuneQuest, Star Wars d6, Blades in the Dark and many more!

Cheers, Hywel

[Luvgod]

I understand that it's not worth committing developer time if there's little usage. I was just hoping I had missed something. Our group will play our first WOIN game this weekend

[superteddy57]

This has been discussed with quite a few other rulesets that I have been maintaining and expanding in maintenance mode. I am currently the one watching over Starfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, Basic Roleplaying, and Vampire the Masquerade. Maintenance mode does not mean the end or death of a system on Fantasy Grounds. What it means is further expansion for the code's current state will be slow and majority of work being performed will be towards bug reports and things that halt a play session. One example of this recently would be Starfinder. I have provided a ruleset expansion to accommodate the new Tech Revolution book. So, having the tag of maintenance mode is not a death nail or a finale for the system in question.

[Viper007]

Just curious - the publisher hasnt updated OLD in 2 years, NOW in 3 years and NEW in 4 years.
Does the same reasoning hold? Should the published put stickers on their books - hey we dont update this book any more.

Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

Just curious - are you involved in the dev situation, do you work for FG?
Should FG drop all games that the publisher has not updated regularly?

Should the publisher's put stickers on their books, "Sorry, we don't update this anymore!"
Oh!, by the way, don't know how you got a copy, but thanks for buying it!!

Let's be real here, sure WOIN started out with a bang, got a lot of press and then moved to other things,
like Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, etc. Let's be frank, EN publishing is not known for sticking with one thing, ever!

FG started producing the ruleset, so I presume they saw some interest there, and perhaps they were wrong, but
let's be real here again, the ruleset has never and I repeat here, has never been up to what it was purported to be!

Go back and look at the first post in this thread. Really, read it, the plans were there the issue is and was, the dev
didn't finish the product, FG didn't finish the product. I paid for it, others paid for it, it's not about the money, it was
about the expectation of what WOIN meant to me and what it meant to others, about having faith in buying the product.

You look for someone playing it, there are quite a few games that you don't see being played, should FG put all of them
into maintenance mode. Look at the post's following yours, some people are playing it!
I agree with Colin, FG should put a label on the product, but instead of "In Maintenance Mode", it should be,

"Never finished, never was, but we are still selling it!"

Some fools did, myself included!

[damned]

Just curious - are you involved in the dev situation, do you work for FG?

No and No. My comments are my own.

Should FG drop all games that the publisher has not updated regularly?

Lets keep my comments in the context they were made.
Companies and Individuals stop spending time on developing products for many reasons. They rarely put labels on them saying "this product is no longer being developed". Are there still errors or broken rules in many of the RPGs that you play? There certainly are in many that I have.

Should the publisher's put stickers on their books, "Sorry, we don't update this anymore!"
Oh!, by the way, don't know how you got a copy, but thanks for buying it!!

This happens every day. I daresay that every physical book I have bought has some errors or typos in it. And I have a lot of books.

Let's be real here, sure WOIN started out with a bang, got a lot of press and then moved to other things,
like Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, etc. Let's be frank, EN publishing is not known for sticking with one thing, ever!

FG started producing the ruleset, so I presume they saw some interest there, and perhaps they were wrong, but
let's be real here again, the ruleset has never and I repeat here, has never been up to what it was purported to be!

I have some casual knowledge of how the product came to be on FG. In my opinion they way it happened to come to FG should never have happened and the current product is probably some justification of my opinion.

Go back and look at the first post in this thread. Really, read it, the plans were there the issue is and was, the dev
didn't finish the product, FG didn't finish the product. I paid for it, others paid for it, it's not about the money, it was
about the expectation of what WOIN meant to me and what it meant to others, about having faith in buying the product.

You look for someone playing it, there are quite a few games that you don't see being played, should FG put all of them
into maintenance mode. Look at the post's following yours, some people are playing it!
I agree with Colin, FG should put a label on the product, but instead of "In Maintenance Mode", it should be,

"Never finished, never was, but we are still selling it!"

Some fools did, myself included!

I know you say its not about the money - but it is either about the love of it or its about the money.
If the product sold 100x the number of units it has sold then this dev or another dev would continue its development.
It hasnt and its highly unlikely to.
Yes it sucks when this is the game you want to play and you dont have the product you hoped you would.
Im not defending the state of the product - Im simply sharing my opinion that this product will never have the sales to justify ongoing development of the product.

I will add a caveat to that.
The ruleset development might continue if there is someone who:
a) has some ability to program or willing to learn
b) loves the WOIN system
c) is willing to spend 50/100/200 hours on something mostly for the love of it

That is DCC, 2E, CoC, SavageWorlds, ICRPG, RMC.
There have been other abandoned products - Iron Kingdoms (is that what is was called?) was pulled because it was broken.
I dont play WOIN so I dont know how bad/limiting the interface is.
Sometimes "features" are missing, are clumsy or are broken.
They all limit but some are worse.

[Viper007]

No and No. My comments are my own.

Then why do you care, it seems that you are concerned about FG and it's business, but you don't work for them or seem to have any interest in WOIN?
So the context here is something I do not understand. Again, why do you care, if you don't play it, you don't work for FG, I guess that means you have
some other interest you have not divulged?

I have some casual knowledge of how the product came to be on FG. In my opinion they way it happened to come to FG should never have happened and the current product is probably some justification of my opinion.

If you don't want to share then I guess I can only wonder again, why do you care?

I know you say its not about the money - but it is either about the love of it or its about the money.

There are many reasons a person would look forward to something, it not always about money or love. Perhaps you are limiting your aspect, but then again, why do you care?

If the product sold 100x the number of units it has sold then this dev or another dev would continue its development.
It hasnt and its highly unlikely to.
Yes it sucks when this is the game you want to play and you dont have the product you hoped you would.
Im not defending the state of the product - Im simply sharing my opinion that this product will never have the sales to justify ongoing development of the product.

And again, you don't work for FG, you don't play WOIN, but you sure seem to be defensive about the fact WOIN is soaking up too much dev time! Again, why do you care?

I will add a caveat to that.
The ruleset development might continue if there is someone who:
a) has some ability to program or willing to learn
b) loves the WOIN system
c) is willing to spend 50/100/200 hours on something mostly for the love of it

The fact is that the ruleset HAS NEVER been finished to the point that it is completely playable, look at the threads and comments and the time that has passed. But then I guess you would buy a car with a door missing and call it ok!

That is DCC, 2E, CoC, SavageWorlds, ICRPG, RMC.
There have been other abandoned products - Iron Kingdoms (is that what is was called?) was pulled because it was broken.
I dont play WOIN so I dont know how bad/limiting the interface is.
Sometimes "features" are missing, are clumsy or are broken.
They all limit but some are worse.

One thing I agree with you on, is that WOIN is broken, however not pulled? Still in the shop for $19.99 plus adventures. Are you sure you don't work for FG?


Look Damned, I have seen your posts quite a few times on FG and I don't know you, but it seems that you are sticking you nose where it doesn't really belong or you have some other
agenda for weighing in on this thread. If you really want to help FG and others, be positive and find solutions to the problems instead of being negative about what you think should be
done about a ruleset you don't play, and a company you don't work for.

I would be more than willing to discuss how I can help in this ruleset's future, as well as NOW and OLD. If anyone wants to communicate with positive comments, that is what we should
be doing, not finding reasons not too! I'm not a programmer, I like the ruleset (not love), and don't mind spending time to help.

That being said, Damned, what do you have to offer?

[jharp]

Given Damned's participation in FG, and this forum in general he has already provided more than sufficient offerings. I think you just wish to find offence where none was intended.

Jason

[Viper007]

Given Damned's participation in FG, and this forum in general he has already provided more than sufficient offerings. I think you just wish to find offence where none was intended.

Jason

I am fully aware of Damned's participation in FG and the forums in general and he has been quite helpful in many instances. It is not my intention to look for offence if there was none, but let's look at the post.

Ultimately it seems there just isnt any demand for these products on FG. Yes - any is being used loosely here. By any I mean enough to justify continuing to sink time into the product. That isnt great if it is your game of choice but I cant see any realistic way forward. I dont recall ever seeing WOIN on the Games Being Played stats - not anywhere. At this point its probably moot whether its the game system or the ruleset - it seems there is not enough demand to continue dev on it.

Negativity reins in this comment and I just wonder why? And since Damned has no connection with the company or the game, what is his reasoning to post the comment on this thread. I like the ruleset and obviously you saw something in it as per your post:

Maybe they can get permission to unlock the ruleset? @ddavidson

I have been waiting for much longer than most to get full use of this ruleset and still look forward to the possibility. I even made a setting for it and it's on DTRPG, sadly I am no programmer, so I can't fix the ruleset. I know that's it's possible and for the life of me I can't understand the motive in his post.

Perhaps he meant nothing, perhaps he has a grudge he won't talk about, but why post those comments if you are trying to be helpful? Especially, if you don't work for the company, simply uncalled for!