How Would You Handle NPC Ability Scores in this Example?

[Nickademus]

One thing I think you might not realize about 5e, based on your previous posts: NPCs in 5e don't have a class or a level. They have a race and stats, that's all. (Some have a spellcaster level that you can use to gauge what level they might be.)

You don't have to try to fit the stats into the framework of a class/background/level that PCs use unless you want to. It's totally up to you, but the NPCs made by WotC don't.

[L. R. Ballard]

I've converted a AD&D campaign over to 5E, and I did a straight swap of stats as they are, with the exception of exceptional strength which I made 19.

I'm converting FRE1 "Shadowdale," a 2e adventure set in the Forgotten Realms and written by Ed Greenwood, to 5e. I'm converting the module as part of the Classic Modules Today project. Basically, I'm writing a guide that helps DMs run classic adventures in 5e on the tabletop. But I'm also using Fantasy Grounds to lay out the conversion and would like to make the conversion available on DMs Guild for the FG community.

The challenge with Greenwood's module is that he doesn't give full stats for NPCs, so a "straight swap of stats as they are" is impossible unless the NPC has been detailed in another product.

So, for example, the passage on the dwarf I'm converting reads: "Dorn Blackhammer, the dwarf, is a 9th level fighter with 70 hp, 18/78 ST (+2 to hit, +4 on damage) and 17 CO" (Greenwood FRE1 16). Greenwood writes a few more paragraphs on Dorn (who, by the way, became a recurring character in my childhood campaign), but, as far as stats, that's it. That's why I need to develop full stats for Dorn. However, Jhaele Silvermane and Lord Mourngrym, who appear in FRE1, are detailed in other 2e and 3e sources, so I should be able to find their stats in those sources and do the "straight swap" suggested.

[L. R. Ballard]

Wizards put out this guide a while back. Might help.

Thanks. My logic aligns with the guide that you linked to. The guide advises, "Reassigning Ability Scores. Rather than converting scores, especially if you have trouble doing so, you can follow the rules for determining ability scores set forth in the fifth edition Player’s Handbook. To do so, use the standard set of scores or customized scores acquired by spending points. Then apply racial adjustments and any adjustments from the Ability Score Improvement class feature. Use the original character’s ability scores to guide your choices" ("Conversions to 5th Edition D&D" 2).

In the example of converting Dorn, I used the standard set of scores (PHB 5e, 13) just as the guide advises, but I'll probably keep the strength and constitution scores that Greenwood notes.

[L. R. Ballard]

You can also assume the 18 & 17 are obtained from the ASI's he got at those levels. (In 2E he probably got them from experience, potions, magic etc)

I recall that ability score increases in 2e came from magic mainly. I'd probably make the assumption you suggest, though the guide linked to by El Condoro advises that I can add the level-based ASIs, if I choose to treat the NPC as class based, of course.

If I added the level-based ASIs, would there be a concern that the NPC was overpowered?

[L. R. Ballard]

5e does not do quite an exact translation of classes to NPC. Look at guard and veteran in the MM as examples.

Thanks. I looked at those two over the weekend. In fact, I based my conversion of the Purple Dragon soldier, level 1, on the Guard. Greenwood offers this description of the Purple Dragon soldier: "If the PCs attack her, Salreen will call for help. It will come in the form of a patrol of twelve Purple Dragon soldiers, five 1st and seven 2nd level fighters, clad in chainmail and armed with longswords, spears, handaxes and daggers" (FRE1 8). Thus, I made two NPCs: a 1st-level Purple Dragon Soldier and a 2nd-level Purple Dragon Soldier. I looked at the Guard from the 5e Monster Manual (347) for a reference monster, so to speak.

I didn't add a background to the 1st-level Purple Dragon, but I added the Soldier background--and thereby two more skills--to the 2nd-level Purple Dragon simply to differentiate the two. I added the Action Surge to both NPCs, and I added all the weapons that Greenwood states the Purple Dragons have on their persons. I also gave the 2nd-level Purple Dragon Soldier the fighter class feature of Second Wind.

I'm your case, I would take the veteran NPC, adjust the stats from human to dwarf, and then make any other changes you think is needed to make it the "9th level" fighter you were aiming at.

5e fighters get to be battlemasters or champions or eldritch knights, so there are a few more traits you could add.

I like the idea of adding a martial archetype to high-level fighters like Dorn. It gives the NPC greater depth and personality. I'm doing the conversion for the Classic Modules Today project per the advice I got in my first thread from you or Lord Entrails. One of the converters, Mark Stout, has made class-based NPCs with martial archetypes for some of his conversions. He has published a PDF of NPCs through DMs Guild with class builds for all the basic classes, even-numbered levels 2 through 20.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/183...5381_0_0_0_0_0

[L. R. Ballard]

One thing I think you might not realize about 5e, based on your previous posts: NPCs in 5e don't have a class or a level. They have a race and stats, that's all. (Some have a spellcaster level that you can use to gauge what level they might be.)

Of course I do! But I grant that my previous posts assumed without explanation that I'd chosen to calculate the bonuses as though the humanoid NPCs were classed, an option that the DMG allows.

You don't have to try to fit the stats into the framework of a class/background/level that PCs use unless you want to. It's totally up to you, but the NPCs made by WotC don't.

I like that freedom in 5e, and I've chosen to follow Mark Stout's lead and do the Classic Modules Today humanoid NPCs as class based whenever it makes sense. But I also like the more casual way that I've seen in official releases from WotC.

My question is would it bother anyone who might use NPCs that I've created that the humanoids have class-based stats and traits and actions and the like?

[Nickademus]

My question is would it bother anyone who might use NPCs that I've created that the humanoids have class-based stats and traits and actions and the like?

From what I've seen, I doubt anyone would care as long as the NPC matches its CR and they don't have to bother putting the stats into FG themselves. At least until the list of traits and actions starts getting long; then I'd shave some of the class-based features off that aren't needed for NPC's role in the adventure.

[L. R. Ballard]

From what I've seen, I doubt anyone would care as long as the NPC matches its CR and they don't have to bother putting the stats into FG themselves. At least until the list of traits and actions starts getting long; then I'd shave some of the class-based features off that aren't needed for NPC's role in the adventure.

I've checked the CR table and followed the steps advised in the DMG, but I still consider the NPCs to be first drafts; all the stats are parsing correctly and completely so far, which is good.

Those lists can get long, especially in the Combat Tracker. I've been walking through The Sunless Citadel with a party of pregens. One died, so I added an NPC from Sunless Citadel to the party. The NPC is only 1st level, but he has nine items listed in the tracker, mainly spells. Sometimes I had to minimize his Offense just to run the other participants. I can only imagine some of the lists for the higher-level characters. A trim may indeed be in order for some NPCs as this conversion progresses. . . .

[Nickademus]

I've heard advice that an NPC only needs a few spells, usually the highest level ones. A pregen for PC-use is different, but an NPC opponent won't generally have time to use all its spells. So only a few good ones are important. This wasn't the design pattern of earlier editions, so you may well have insane spell spam in the CT with a straight conversion. One of the things I like most about 5e was the removal of a lot of bloat (magic items, spells, bonuses, monster stats, etc.).

[L. R. Ballard]

I've heard advice that an NPC only needs a few spells, usually the highest level ones. A pregen for PC-use is different, but an NPC opponent won't generally have time to use all its spells. So only a few good ones are important.

How about a layout for spellcasters that plots five or so rounds of combat actions, summarizes those various rounds in the Notes at the bottom of the NPC stat card, and includes only those spells? So, for example:

Round-by-round Notes: 1. Mage armor. 2. Magic Missile. 3. Sleep.

This wasn't the design pattern of earlier editions, so you may well have insane spell spam in the CT with a straight conversion. One of the things I like most about 5e was the removal of a lot of bloat (magic items, spells, bonuses, monster stats, etc.).

Some 3rd-edition designs included complete stat blocks with full spell lists. However, a quick search of the FRE1 adventure shows that Ed Greenwood proceeds as you've advised. For example, Greenwood introduces a lawful evil wizard named Ulgon, writing, "Ulgon is LE, has 22 hp, and is armed with a wand of magic missiles (with 12 charges) and a blink ring (detailed in the New Magic appendix, p. 42). He also has a full complement of spells, including polymorph other, two lightning bolts, and three magic missiles" (FRE1 7).

Greenwood writes simply that Ulgon has "a full complement of spells" (FRE1 7), and, after offering a few examples, leaves the rest to the DM. I've yet to start converting spellcasters, but that may be the way to go, especially when I reach Elminster, who's 26th-level in FRE1.