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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Baron28 View Post
    1. Action - shoots arrow at target at advantage since hidden from previous round. On a hit, rolls normal and sneak attack damage dice.
    Apologies for the thread necromancy, but I've just started to DM a 5E game with a rogue in, and I'm trying to get my head around how rogues get their sneak attack damage. It's the step above that bothers me - how is the rogue able to shoot an arrow at the target without moving first, when they had to move completely out of sight of that target in order to be able to hide in the first place?

  2. #12
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    If the rogue starts the combat hidden then they would get their sneak attack. If the creatures then fail (and this is all of the creatures) a perception check against the rogues stealth check then the rogue would remain hidden. If the rogue moves they'd make another stealth check and again the NPCs would need to all fail their perception check for the rogue to remain hidden.

    In most cases rogues get their sneak attack damage from other factors rather than being hidden. Generally rogues are front line fighters and so get their sneak attack by standing beside an ally. If your rogue is ranged however they are unlikely to get sneak attack very often unless the NPCs have rubbish perception.

    Also of course there must be something for the rogue to hide behind. In a big empty room there isn't going to be much to hide behind unless they are Halflings and can hide behind a bigger ally.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featu...rerequests.php

  3. #13
    Thanks, Zacchaeus! So, are you saying that the rogue would have to move to take their shot, and they'd need to succeed at an opposed stealth check in order to get the sneak attack damage?

  4. #14
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    No, they don't have to move. Whether or not they move after they have taken their first shot from hiding (assuming they successfully hide in the first place) they need to win the contested roll to remain in hiding. So it plays something like:

    1. Party hears or sees a group of enemies up ahead.
    2. Rogue makes a stealth check which beats the passive perception check of all the NPCs
    3. Rogue then has advantage on their first shot and if they hit gets sneak attack damage
    4. Rogue now makes stealth check to remain hidden
    5. NPCs are now aware of the rogue so are now making active perception checks. The rogue can remain in place or move it doesn't matter.
    6. If any one of the NPCs beats the rogues stealth check then the rogue is no longer hidden and therefore does not get advantage on their next shot and so don't get sneak attack
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featu...rerequests.php

  5. #15
    Remember that even if they stealth the person they are hiding from can see that they keep going behind that corner... as long as LoS is nolonger broken that player is seen and drops out of stealth.

    Stealth isn't invisibility (generally)

    That said, if they are a ranger/rogue with the deepstalker archetype and it is darkness... or they have greater invis... then they are fine

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lostsanityreturned View Post
    Remember that even if they stealth the person they are hiding from can see that they keep going behind that corner... as long as LoS is nolonger broken that player is seen and drops out of stealth.

    Stealth isn't invisibility (generally)

    That said, if they are a ranger/rogue with the deepstalker archetype and it is darkness... or they have greater invis... then they are fine
    Which brings up another way to handle the rogue who pops in and out: have an NPC move where they have line of sight and the PC cannot hide there anymore.

  7. #17
    What he is doing is correct for his Class, not an exploitation, it is what his character is able to do.

    From a Role-Playing perspective I understand your complaint, but realize if characters have an ability to do something within the rules, they will tend to do it.

    The Rogue in my game has a tendency to do what his character would do, not just what actions the rules will allow, so this situation comes up less often. That is why I look for people that will actually Role-Play game and not treat it as a computer combat game. When I advertise for players, I am not looking for rules-lawyers, and tend to select older people ( the youngest person in my current homebrew campaign is in his early 30's ).

    That said, I do expect my Rogue player to pop in and out of cover, he even uses the ability to step behind someone larger than himself and hide with his ability to do that too.

    Remember that it is not you against the players, it is you telling a cooperative story with the players, at least that is the way I DM

  8. #18
    Thanks, everyone, for your input. In fact, I'm trying to help the person who's playing the rogue, as they are new to D&D, and aren't sure how to create situations where they get sneak attack damage. But I can't explain it if I don't understand it myself, and I still don't understand it!

    Let's say the rogue is fighting some foes in a corridor. The rogue shoots an arrow, then moves around a corner. Now the rogue can't see the foes, and vice versa, so the rogue can hide. On the rogue's next turn, the rogue has to move back round the corner in order to take another shot at the foes, right?

  9. #19
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
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    Yes. The rogue needs to be able to see the target in order to hit it.
    If there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here https://www.fantasygrounds.com/featu...rerequests.php

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zacchaeus View Post
    Yes. The rogue needs to be able to see the target in order to hit it.
    Not exactly true. Or rather, only true in this case by a technicality.

    Because in this case it is a wall causing the blocked line of sight the actual issue is cover not visibility, but as the rogue probably can't see through the wall the difference is moot. The rogue needs to advance to the point where the target has 3/4 cover or less to be able to shoot at them. Rule reference for cover here. In this case the attack is -5 to hit so the rogue preferably would move farther forward than that.

    In general you can shoot at invisible targets, hidden targets, or those inside darkness that you cannot see. Rule reference for unseen targets here. In these cases you have disadvantage on the attack but you are always allowed to try to shoot at someone you cannot see. If the target in the darkness is blinded by it (for example because you are the ally of someone who is using a magical darkness hexblade build or whatnot) then the blindness also grants you advantage to hit that target therefore they cancel out and your attack is resolved normally.

    Unlike ranged attacks many spells require the caster see the target, and in those cases visibility does prevent the spell from being cast at all. When the spell does not specifically require the caster to see the target it follows the rule of "clear line of sight to the target" referenced here. This again would require 3/4 cover or less as if an attack, but no penalty is applied to the spell unlike the ranged attack. This is an example of "specific trumps general" in determining which rule applies.

    /end rules lawyering
    Last edited by GavinRuneblade; December 21st, 2018 at 06:28.

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