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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    A cautionary word....
    Building a ruleset is likely to take you anywhere from 3months to 3years.
    One thing at a time will get you there faster.

    You dont need an author/publishers permission to build a ruleset - game mechanics cannot be copy protected - but it never hurts.

    You will probably be better off working out the core dice mechanics and if it doesnt exist in MoreCore (for 3.2.0) build a new dice roller to be incorporated... it will be much easier and a much lower load on your time.
    That is the biggest reason I don't want to take on working on an additional project right now. I still don't know how long it is going to take me to get through all of the Swords & Wizardry stuff.

    One thing I've been wondering, not related to S&W or rulesets, but if we'll end up seeing some of the Frog God Games megadungeons like Rappan Athuk or Slumbering Tsar added for FG. I know Smiteworks and FGG have a contract in place and access to the entire FGG catalog. I was really glad to see Quests of Doom pop up.
    Last edited by Zhern; October 24th, 2016 at 02:31.
    Patrick

    Ultimate License Holder
    Currently Running (rotating home campaigns): Hobgoblins, Orcs, and Kobolds, Oh My! (5E), The Enemy Within (WFRP)
    Currently Playing: Castle Zagyg (Labyrinth Lord), The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (AD&D)

  2. #12
    Regarding Rappan Athuk or Slumbering Tsar, I'm pretty sure the answer would be that it isn't that Smiteworks doesn't have permission to do them, but it would be a question of would it give a return on investment. It would take hundreds of hours likely to get a megadungeon like Rappan Athuk formatted in FG and after that, it would be doubtful if it would sell enough to get a return on the time invested. In order to be a sellable product, the customer expects 100% of the entire text in the module and professional looking. That takes a ton of work.

    On the other hand though, for personal use, it isn't that tough to get something workable formatted. What I usually do is this: I have my hard copy of the module in front of me when I am playing. The only things I actually enter into FG is: maps, encounters, items, treasure parcels, npcs and monsters. I don't enter any of the text itself. A typical 20 - 32 page adventure module I can usually have prepped to run in about 3 hours work. A megadungeon like that, not sure, but it would be considerably less than what it would take to make it a professionally salable product.

    Regarding your project. Have faith in yourself. I know you are up to the task. Leverage as much of the existing code as possible. That is why your layering it over the existing code in the first place. Starting from C&C or 3.5, 80 - 90 % of the code can probably be used as is; after all, it's all based on D&D. Find the delta - the things that make S&W different from the game your layering it over. List down the differences. Fix them one at a time. You'll be done sooner than you expect, i think.
    Ultimate License Holder GM

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  3. #13
    Thanks for the words of encouragement on the project. My biggest limitation is free time to work on it. I know I'll get it done, I just can't commit to a timeline.

    From what Bill (The Frog God) told me, Smiteworks has full access to the FGG catalog, but as you mentioned, it comes down to ROI. I would think they would do well given how epic the FGG stuff is but if there has been little demand for it then it is perfectly logical and sensible to focus on the product that will sell best. I might take a crack at Rappan Athuk or Sword of Air after I finish up the Swords & Wizardry ruleset. I'm looking forward to my last graduate class next spring because after that I should have plenty of free time...till I start the next degree, heh.
    Patrick

    Ultimate License Holder
    Currently Running (rotating home campaigns): Hobgoblins, Orcs, and Kobolds, Oh My! (5E), The Enemy Within (WFRP)
    Currently Playing: Castle Zagyg (Labyrinth Lord), The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (AD&D)

  4. #14
    Here is an update regarding my request regarding AS&SH.

    I pm'ed him with this:

    Hi. I wanted a chance to explain in more detail what Fantasy Grounds is, why you should be involved in it, either now, or in the future, and what it would take to do that.

    First, I wanted to say, when I made my post about supporting a ruleset, I wasn't really expecting you to say, sure, let's do that, here is some money earmarked to hire a programmer to do it. I really just wanted to make sure you were aware that Fantasy Grounds exists and what it can do for your product. Heck, you might even find use for it yourself personally for your own games. Who knows.

    Also, I should make this clear, I am simply a long time user of the Fantasy Grounds software and active member of the forums there, so I in no shape or form represent Fantasy Grounds or SmiteWorks (company that owns it).

    Fantasy Grounds is the premier virtual tabletop software on the market and they are growing leaps and bounds in popularity. Since I first purchased it in 2007, due to the leadership of Mr. Davison the owner, he has taken a rather obscure piece of software and taken it from obscurity to being the official virtual tabletop for both WOTC and Paizo. They also have an online store which not only sells official rulesets, ingame manuals, and ingame conversions of adventure modules, all of which the IP holder gets their share for sales. It is cutting edge stuff and looking to get even better when they convert the software platform to a unity engine underneath the hood sometime next year.

    Here is the catch, though.

    Development of a "ruleset" - the actual module that contains the character sheet for a specific game and tells the computer the rules which that game works under etc. has to be programmed using a combination of XML and LUA scripting. It's a task that entails likely 100 to 200 hours of programming work that needs to be done.

    There are basically two approaches to get that done.

    1) hire a programmer to do it - but that is very financially risky and may not reap a return on investment, honestly, as I know you aren't WOTC and this isn't 5e.

    or

    2) as one of the other people suggested, having you show public interest in seeking a volunteer to make it happen, one might step up and do it as a labor of love. Hey, it could happen, right. In that case, it is really a win win situation for all concerned.

    You see, the biggest issue the Fantasy Grounds community has had is in gaining permission from game companies to do conversions of the products, even when the work is being payed for by Smiteworks or being donated by the community. Case in point, Goodman Games won't even respond to our pleas to allow doing official conversions of their adventure modules, we guess because they feel so strongly in promoting face to face play. For years and years, WOTC did the same. It was a big win for them when they finally changed their mind, as there are about 60 thousand individual games of 5e played each month on Fantasy Grounds and the officially supported manuals and other products are big sellers in the FG store and the DM's Guild store. But, that's 5e.

    I'll go out on a limb here. I personally would be interested in donating my time to make a project like this happen. I would like to develop a working ruleset for your game. I'm not a professional and I would only be doing it in my spare time. I am confident, however, that given permission to do so, I can get the ruleset up and running sometime in 2017 and I am confident it will be something you would be proud of.

    At that point, we can determine if it should be a community ruleset, which is simply shared non-commercially to the Fantasy Grounds users without in game manuals or any trademarked material etc, or if it should be a commercial ruleset officially supported and sold in the store. If the decision is made that it is worthy to make it a commercial product, then it would need to include official manuals, like the AS&S Rulebook, Beastiary and other portions of your official trademarked IP. Taking that step would require proper legal contracts etc. to be signed etc.

    If you want to see a demo of what FG can do, I'll be happy to do that for you.


    Response from Jeffrey Talanian:

    Charles, I would love to take you up on that, seeing the demo of what it can do, but from my cloistered world of mechanical pencils, graph paper, and old moldy books, it is a bit hard for me to digest at the moment -- especially considering the bombardment of questions/suggestions/feedback I am receiving both privately and publicly. I would love to revisit the topic after the holidays, when work and responsibilities are less intense, so can we revisit it then at a time of our mutual convenience! Many thanks for taking the time to articulate your knowledge, Charles. Thank you!
    Ultimate License Holder GM

    Games currently Playing: AD&D, DCC RPG and D&D 5e

    Finished Projects: AD&D Ruleset
    New School NPC Maker 5E
    New School NPC Maker PFRPG - 3.5E
    Old School NPC Maker

    Current Projects:

    1) Adventure Module.
    2) Maintaining and improving released projects.
    3) C.O.O.L. Beasts
    4) Basic Fantasy Ruleset
    5) Metamorphosis Alpha Ruleset

  5. #15
    Any new word, Vodokar?

    -Prof.Dogg

  6. #16
    We would love to add additional rulesets to Fantasy Grounds, but please don't suggest adding it to a Kickstarter. Ruleset development is considered high-risk because they take a fair amount of time to build out fully and a large number of them which have been started by well-intentioned fans have been abandoned before completion. I would much prefer to get agreement to allow it in private and then discuss a Kickstarter or other public announcements when it is fully ready to go -- or nearly so. Even large and complex modules can fall into the high-risk category.

    Please don't take this as a knock towards Vodokar or an insinuation that you are not technically capable of delivering a ruleset. We've just seen good developers fall short or get impacted by real-life changes, job loss, health issues, etc.

  7. #17
    JohnD's Avatar
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    If your FG demo session comes to fruition, you might want to show him C&C. I believe Mr. Talinian was working with Gygax on the Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg campaign for TLG when Gary passed and his widow pulled the rights. Unless, you have something of his ruleset ready for show by then. AS&SH is being heavily promoted in the online OSR community through places such as Tenkar's Tavern and other similar places. You would be able to target a whole new market segment if you can manage it.
    DMing since 1979. Ultimate License holder.

    Currently GMing:
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    Thanks for 7+ years of gaming via FG my friends (2e / 3.5e / Rolemaster Classic / Castles & Crusades / Pathfinder / Savage Worlds / 5e).

    There/Their/They're are all different words and do not mean the same thing.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ddavison View Post
    We would love to add additional rulesets to Fantasy Grounds, but please don't suggest adding it to a Kickstarter. Ruleset development is considered high-risk because they take a fair amount of time to build out fully and a large number of them which have been started by well-intentioned fans have been abandoned before completion. I would much prefer to get agreement to allow it in private and then discuss a Kickstarter or other public announcements when it is fully ready to go -- or nearly so. Even large and complex modules can fall into the high-risk category.

    Please don't take this as a knock towards Vodokar or an insinuation that you are not technically capable of delivering a ruleset. We've just seen good developers fall short or get impacted by real-life changes, job loss, health issues, etc.
    I might have misread something but I don't think Vodokar was suggesting doing it as a KS. At the time of his posting, the KS was already is in full swing (possibly even finished, I don't remember when it closed). I think he was suggesting it to Talinian when it was still going or just recently wrapped up with the idea it would be a project afterward. I might be wrong but that was my impression.

    --Prof.Dogg

  9. #19
    JohnD's Avatar
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    I would support the heck out of this product line with my wallet. Hope it happens.
    DMing since 1979. Ultimate License holder.

    Currently GMing:
    * Yggsburgh and Castle Zagyg - Castles and Crusades Greyhawk (Mon/Fri/Sat)
    * Temple of Elemental Evil - Castles and Crusades Greyhawk (Thursday - on hiatus)
    * 2e Greyhawk (Wednesday)

    Thanks for 7+ years of gaming via FG my friends (2e / 3.5e / Rolemaster Classic / Castles & Crusades / Pathfinder / Savage Worlds / 5e).

    There/Their/They're are all different words and do not mean the same thing.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ProfDogg View Post
    I might have misread something but I don't think Vodokar was suggesting doing it as a KS. At the time of his posting, the KS was already is in full swing (possibly even finished, I don't remember when it closed). I think he was suggesting it to Talinian when it was still going or just recently wrapped up with the idea it would be a project afterward. I might be wrong but that was my impression.

    --Prof.Dogg
    That's probably true. We just wanted to be safer than sorry and didn't want to see it added as a last minute stretch goal to an ongoing KS. We've seen it before which has made us a little gun-shy.

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