E-Tools Character XML converter

[Graiskye]

Yea this is a bit strange if you ask me, how is it any different from someone sending a person the character they created with etools, something that is done everyday all over the net. Or what about all the people using PCGen to convert PCGen characters to OpenRPG,isnt it the same thing??
I wrote teknohippy requesting a copy, something he wouldnt do, cause he swore he wouldnt. And I can understand that no problem, but... sounds like more of a control issue than anything else. I mean a person cant even fart on these forums without insigating a copyright infringement discussion, does WoTC, or CMP sue people regularily over these issues? I understand this is FG's site and they dont want to step on anyones toes, so they have the right to do whatever they choose, understood.
I guess the only real solution to having a community that can say what they want without having to answer to someone else is a private member site.As it is I cant even mention the name of an adventure I plan to run for fear of copyright infringement.
Thats all, not trying to flame, just stating a point, too much red tape make for no fun. I was stoked when I saw that there was a converter, much like the converter for PCGen that works for OpenRPG, which I use all the time for the exact same thing, then I was dissapointed to see that it had been shanghaid, Any idea how long we will have to wait for this exhaustive procedure to run its course.. Grai

[Illrigger]

As Mynex stated, ETools is the IP of WotC. How far their lawyers will push that point is anyone's guess, but WotC's parent company Hasbro has so far been pretty agressive with their policy of sending Cease and Desist notices for just about anything that touches anything they own. Many, many sites making product references to WotC IP have been shut down over the years. That how CMP got started, if you remember, and so they are in a rather unique position of knowing who to talk to the make sure the lawyers don't shut this down. If Mynex sees the need to raise a flag over this, chances are it's better to be safe than sorry else the entire product goes away forever.

[CMP Mynex]

Ok, first let it be said that I am a CopyRight NOob.

"It'll take the XML from E-Tools and convert it to a FG character" I am looking at this and I am curious. If a person creates a character in E-Tools(I am assuming here, I do not have E-Tools) and then uses some free converter that someone has made, how is this copyright infringement? Is the XML that E-Tools out-puts copyrighted? Is the XML coding copyrighted, or just the data strings in the XML, or the entire thing? Hypothetically speaking if the entire thing is, then do they own the character that was made? What portion is copyrighted and what is not, I can 'get' the coding is copyrighted, but the output? Makes me wonder if Macromedia or Adobe could somehow claim that all things created with their software is thus theirs.

See, there is a good reason I hate lawyers and would never want to be one. :wink:

Okay, I'll try to keep this non-lawyerish.

It's not the XML that's the issue. XML is an open format that's pretty widely used now for conversion of things left, right, center, up, and down between applications.

What is the issue is the content. And that's what all the IP 'flame fests' and distribution you see pop up are about.

companies MUST make sure that their IP (Intellectual Property) is protected. Whether it be going after Joe bookseller that's ripped the covers off of a book and is reselling it for $1, or images of art, or game rules mechanics for an RPG. It's similiar to trademark/copyright laws, if they don't protect their IP, they can lose rights to it.

Distribution is the main issue, especially with the internet being as open as it is. Joe Bookseller usually has a brick & mortar shop, so it's easier to give them a cease& desist order and follow up on it... that's exceptionally problematic with the internet.. "Oh we got a C&D from joe company about their IP, time to move the site or set up that members only login area".

Let me explain something here, bit of a sidetrack, but also important.

You do NOT own the rights to the content of an RPG book. What you OWN is the paper and ink that went into making that book. What you have is the RIGHT to use that material. A game publisher OWNS that content and is allowing you to use it for personal use.

You own the right to use the content of the paper medium from the publisher. An electronic utility (character generator, GM tools, virtual tabletop, whatever) is a _DIFFERENT_ medium. You do NOT have the right to own an electronic version of a paper product.

Why not? While the content may be the same, the work that goes into producing that medium is not. It's a totally different usage of manpower and material to make a print product versus an electronic product. Sometimes it's cheaper to make that conversion, sometimes it's not. But either way, it is a different media, with different requirements and permissions.

I used this example on EN World, and I think it explains this very well;

If you buy H.G. Wells "War of the Worlds" the original version, you are NOT entitled to;

Free tickets to see the movie
The Audio version

Why? different media, same content. You aren't paying for the content, you're paying for the work and effort to convert it to that media.

Sorry to pattle on about this, but these types of conversations are important for you guys, the end users, to understand...

If you opt not to care, if you opt to download anything and everything because you feel it's your right, or you're broke that month, or you hamster broke it's leg, or whatever other justification you come up with, you are hurting the industry.

How? The RPG utility industry is baby brand spankin new... RPG's have had time to mature... This is new territory for a LOT of publishers... and they're nervous. They might not get the technology, they might be afraid of the technology... whatever the case is, they're VERY keenly keeping an eye on things to protect themselves.

If the see 'too much piracy' going on with their materials, they can very easily pull the plug on programs that 'enable the loss of their IP'.

And by that, I mean programs that have easy import/export features, programs that have tons of fan written software add-ons to make 'life easier for the user'.

So (finally!) getting back to the main concern of "why" here... It's in YOUR best interest that I step in and check this out, to 'take control' if your minded to say it that way... so that we (CMP) can make sure that any publisher we deal with doesn't get 'twitchy' about Smite Works/Fantasy Grounds and pull the plug on support of it.

Something I'd like all of you to think about before responding to this.

CMP _HAD_ to invest in time, monkeypower, and bribery with banana's to get Sunless Citadel for use in FG TO send to WotC for their approval process... BEFORE having permission to go ahead with this project overall.

We took a very large chance on that loss of money in development time & money for this to _SHOW_ WotC how cool this program is and that we want to support it, convincing WotC that THEY want to support it by allowing their material to appear in this program.

Everyone of you that dig on FG, love this program, think it's 'top tits', >insert other cheezie commnt here<, keep that in mind... If you want more support from publishers for SW/FG, you're going to have to keep publishers rights and concerns in mind.

[CMP Mynex]

Yea this is a bit strange if you ask me, how is it any different from someone sending a person the character they created with etools, something that is done everyday all over the net. Or what about all the people using PCGen to convert PCGen characters to OpenRPG,isnt it the same thing??
I wrote teknohippy requesting a copy, something he wouldnt do, cause he swore he wouldnt. And I can understand that no problem, but... sounds like more of a control issue than anything else. I mean a person cant even fart on these forums without insigating a copyright infringement discussion, does WoTC, or CMP sue people regularily over these issues? I understand this is FG's site and they dont want to step on anyones toes, so they have the right to do whatever they choose, understood.
I guess the only real solution to having a community that can say what they want without having to answer to someone else is a private member site.As it is I cant even mention the name of an adventure I plan to run for fear of copyright infringement.
Thats all, not trying to flame, just stating a point, too much red tape make for no fun. I was stoked when I saw that there was a converter, much like the converter for PCGen that works for OpenRPG, which I use all the time for the exact same thing, then I was dissapointed to see that it had been shanghaid, Any idea how long we will have to wait for this exhaustive procedure to run its course.. Grai

I hope my other post was enough to answer most of this... i not, I'll try, try again...

But I responded specifically to address the 'red tape' issue.

OMFG!!!!! You have _NO_ idea how agonizing slow and painfull the approval process can be. :S

I can't go on any rants about this, but suffice it to say I'd MUCH rather have all my teeth pulled with rusty pliers, Lemon Juice, Salt, and a fat naked orc lapdancing on me sometimes.

Okay... so maybe that imagery was a little much, but I hope that got the point across. :|

[Graiskye]

.....all my teeth pulled with rusty pliers, Lemon Juice, Salt, and a fat naked orc lapdancing on me sometimes.

.....no no that works allright. ops: :? Grai

[Snikle]

OMFG!!!!! You have _NO_ idea how agonizing slow and painfull the approval process can be.

Oh I bet I do, I work for the military.

[CMP Mynex]

OMFG!!!!! You have _NO_ idea how agonizing slow and painfull the approval process can be.

Oh I bet I do, I work for the military.

I was in the Military (Marine Corps) and I'd rather have the military 'process' at times. :S

[Snikle]

HAHA! Not sure I would call it a process! :lol:

[ashman]

whole bunch of stuff

I understand what your saying but I think your analogy is flawed.
This utility isn’t about IP or content and its not anything like a movie ticket/audio book
It’s a document converter…that’s it. It’s a utility that takes an existing format and restructures it so it can be read by another program. This is akin a doc to wpd converter, its not like a movie at all.

That said I can appreciate that erring on the side of caution is wise. People are so ignorant to what technology is and isn’t that it frightens them, the fear of losing something to the cosmic electrons that is the internet is a very real concern;-).
Executive types usually don’t get it, that’s why they have IT people helping them make decisions around technology. Yet they are the ones making the big decisions in the end and if they get scared off we the user end up losing. So baby steps help them thru a transition like this, that’s cool because that’s what it takes.

I think the biggest area of growth potential in PnP Rpg games is the internet. MSN Yahoo all of it is so popular because people do like to interact and connect with others.
As the tools get better and better more and more people will be willing to get involved.
This newest generation feels as comfortable with computers as we did having Electricity..

They have already established long term relationships online. There is a reason that there are 4million active accounts paying monthly to play worlds of warcraft in America alone.
It’s the preferred outlet of entertainment of this generation. And well honestly no one stinks on the internet, hygiene isn’t an issue, Sex isn’t really an issue, Age isn’t that much of an issue, getting 6 people together online to enjoy a game is easier then finding 6 people IRL with busy life schedules to enjoy a game is.. you just have that much bigger of a pool to pull from.

Anyways heres to a great future in Old school gaming via the Net using programs like Fantasy Grounds..
Cheers

[Snikle]

Well here I have a question then maybe you can answer.
Along the lines of this discussion. It is not legal to take the xml character created by E-Tools and use another peice of software to convert it for use in another system. However, someone can take something that is free online, and encode it in XML so that it can be read by another program (FG) and sell it. Isn't that company then using Smiteworks IP (their coding structure for the XML FG stores data in) to their own end and make a profit off of? Has Smiteworks released their API or code structure in a manner approving of users creating add-ons? Since some are selling modules or add-ons for FG, does Smiteworks get approving rights to these add-ons since they are using their IP for it to work?

And yes, I fully understand protecting FG and Smiteworks, I love this program and would not want anything to stop the devleopment of it, hell I talked three other people into purchasing it. Sorry to keep beating a now dead and bloated horse, but this is really confusing me.