Complete SRD Ruleset Feat creator created.

[richvalle]

Thore,

I'm no expert... so I'm asking.

Given the above it sounds like doswelk is not violating your copyright as he is not touching your files but making new ones with the same format. Is that right?

This is also nice as it means it could be used to support other rulesets as long as they were made to support files of that name.

rv

[kalmarjan]

Well, unfortunately by doing so, he would violate the EULA that he agreed to when he downloaded the complete SRD ruleset. Which is why I hope that this gets resolved, as I would like to have the feat editor.
I am holding off on buying the complete SRD ruleset for the moment, pending what happens here.

Cheers,

[Snikle]

I think this came up in another discuss here, but this one is leading that way so I thought I would mention this:

How does FG handle uploads and downloads exactly? If I purchase something as a DM and load it into my FG, when my players log into the game, does FG automaticly download those to their system? For example, I purchase the afore mentioned SRD Ruleset for use in my campaign, when my players log into my game, will FG download this to their systems? Or will it only be available on my system, and how would that affect the game?
In the future, as more add-ins are created and sold, how would this affect maps and tokens? If the DM purchases a module and then his players play the game, will they be privy to any of the (possibly) copyrighted material? Is a DM allowed to share images with players (ie tokens, maps, portraits)? I am assuming he can, so long as these are not then used in some manner in a downloadable format on a website? I can see this putting a damper on the availablity of fan made downloadable modules and adventures, thoughts?

[Thore_Ironrock]

Thore_Ironrock, I had no intention of infringing on your copyright, and for that I am sorry (teach me not to read the small print!)

Matt, I had no intention in putting you in the position that you found yourself, for that I am sorry.

Dos,

No harm, no foul. I hope I didn't come off too strong, but I have to protect my products. I'm sure Matt understands as well. Hopefully we can work together and maybe come up with a cool add-on to the product, but I just wanted to make it clear that anything that has to do with the Complete SRD must be OKed by me first.

The reason for the application was I was so impressed with how you had done the feats, that once I worked out which bits of .xml code did it. I wrote a vb.net application to allow me to add all the non-SRD feats into a personal copy of your ruleset.

The program which I am more than willing to send to you for evaluation creates two .xml files.

The first called featlist.xml is a list of feats that the user must add manually to your feats.xml

The second file is called addtoequipment.xml which generates the links that need to be added to equipment.xml.

This program make no changes to your code, it just creates two files that can pasted in.

Not a problem. It sounds harmless enough. I'll have Ben (the developer) take a look at it and make sure it doesn't break anything in the base code. If that looks OK we can release it as a free download add-on.

On a slightly different note, given that the xml code is copyrighted by yourself, does that mean each player will need to buy their own copy of the Complete SRD ruleset, before a DM can create a game where the players will download your code to their PC?

Currently that issue is something I cannot get around, the downloading to client installations. I knew this going in, so for the most part I have no control of it. In the future Ville and Tero have told me they are going to make changes to that aspect of the software. What sort of changes I do not know yet, but for now it is an issue I have no control over. I would hope that everyone willing to use the software will purchase it, and if their player benefit from it that's OK too. :wink:

I am not trying to be "funny" here but given that I am planning to start a game soon, and may advertise across the internet for players I want to be sure.

Not a problem Dos ... have fun!

Any other issues please let me know. I will get back to everyone on having Dos' code as a free add-on for the Complete SRD.


Best Regards,

[Thore_Ironrock]

Thore,

I'm no expert... so I'm asking.

Given the above it sounds like doswelk is not violating your copyright as he is not touching your files but making new ones with the same format. Is that right?

This is also nice as it means it could be used to support other rulesets as long as they were made to support files of that name.

rv

Rich,

First, I am more than willing to work with anyone interested in doing what Dos did. However, in his post he did not disclose the full extent of what he was doing, so my reaction was in a broad sense.

Also, since his initial code was designed to work specifically with the Complete SRD, it does make it my issue. If he does something similar that works with the default ruleset, then that is fine. However, since Ben's code and format is pretty specific to the ruleset as a whole, i.e. it can only be used with my ruleset, then it really should be approved by me first. My big objection was that I had no idea what he was doing.

As for other rulesets, if Dos wants to change the code to work with other rulesets that's fine, but I don't think they will be compatible with the Complete SRD unless designed so.

Again, I'm not against what Dos did, I just wanted more info on it. As I've said before, I'm more than willing to work with everyone on any FG issue and/or DA product.

Hope that answers your question Rich.

Regards,

[msd]

Well, unfortunately by doing so, he would violate the EULA that he agreed to when he downloaded the complete SRD ruleset.

How? On the assumption (and that is what this is - an assumption) that the only thing he has done is to create a tool which generates content in the same format, where is the copyright violation? To the best of my knowledge, Thore is not claiming that the actual format is the subject of copyright (nor could it be if my legal education serves as it is more aptly described as a method for storing data, the province of patent law).

So where is the alleged violation?

If the tool does not:

1) Copy the work (it is generating its own file output)

2) Distribute the work (again, it is generating its own file and not touching the original work)

3) Display the work

4) Perform the work

5) Create a derivative work

then where is the copyright violation? More specifically, which specific legal right afforded by copyright protection is allegedly being violated?

I am not suggesting that there isn't a violation, but someone is going to have to educate me as to where it is. I have had two years of law school and almost a year of intellectual property and I am just not seeing it. It very well could be that I am just being dense and it is right in front of my face...

On a side note, I want to be clear about something.

There are people on this board who routinely render legal opinions about the status of copyright, what constitues an infringing act, etc. - an act which is likely to constitute the unauthorized practice of law in most jurisdictions (assuming they are not in fact attorneys).

I just mentioned that I attend law school and want to be extraordinarily clear. I am not a licensed attorney and any statements contained in this post should not be taken as legal advice. Nothing in this post should be construed as creating an implied or express attorney-client relationship.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[Thore_Ironrock]

I think this came up in another discuss here, but this one is leading that way so I thought I would mention this:

How does FG handle uploads and downloads exactly? If I purchase something as a DM and load it into my FG, when my players log into the game, does FG automaticly download those to their system? For example, I purchase the afore mentioned SRD Ruleset for use in my campaign, when my players log into my game, will FG download this to their systems? Or will it only be available on my system, and how would that affect the game?

snip

Snikle,

I think I answered that in an above post. For the moment I cannot prevent the ruleset from being shared between clients, and everything is cool with that. Some people have complained that the download did hamper play for awhile, but for the most part were happy once it was over.

In the future things may be different, but for now it is what it is. 8)

In the future, as more add-ins are created and sold, how would this affect maps and tokens? If the DM purchases a module and then his players play the game, will they be privy to any of the (possibly) copyrighted material? Is a DM allowed to share images with players (ie tokens, maps, portraits)? I am assuming he can, so long as these are not then used in some manner in a downloadable format on a website? I can see this putting a damper on the availablity of fan made downloadable modules and adventures, thoughts?

Currently, this is not an issue for the same reasons as above. For now, it is just the nature of the program.

Perhaps when Tero gets home he'll comment on their future plans for this aspect of the software. We did talk about it at Gen Con.

Regards,

[Thore_Ironrock]

Well, unfortunately by doing so, he would violate the EULA that he agreed to when he downloaded the complete SRD ruleset.

How? On the assumption (and that is what this is - an assumption) that the only thing he has done is to create a tool which generates content in the same format, where is the copyright violation? To the best of my knowledge, Thore is not claiming that the actual format is the subject of copyright (nor could it be if my legal education serves as it is more aptly described as a method for storing data, the province of patent law).

So where is the alleged violation?

::snip::

I really didn't want this to turn into a legal argument Matt. The bottom line is that in my opinion (which is consistant with that of the industry) since Dos' tool/code will *only* work with my product, it is considered to an EULA violation by the terms of the OGL and SRD. I think I've been more than understanding in this matter, and I appreciate Dos sending me the code and respecting my ownership of the property. I had hoped that the matter would be closed.

The legal stance of an RPG publisher's property has been an argued topic by law students since the days of TSR, and to be honest I really don't care to argue this here since to do so would prevent me from contributing to my business.

If you think Dos was perfectly right in his creating of the tool then you would have been within your right to post it and make me go through the legal actions to have you take it down. I had hoped that since I had approached this fairly and openly to all parties involved that we could all work together for the betterment of the FG community. If someone wants to argue your individual points then they are welcome to do so. I think I've made myself clear as to how I feel in my previous posts.

Regards,

[msd]

Well, unfortunately by doing so, he would violate the EULA that he agreed to when he downloaded the complete SRD ruleset.

How? On the assumption (and that is what this is - an assumption) that the only thing he has done is to create a tool which generates content in the same format, where is the copyright violation? To the best of my knowledge, Thore is not claiming that the actual format is the subject of copyright (nor could it be if my legal education serves as it is more aptly described as a method for storing data, the province of patent law).

So where is the alleged violation?

::snip::

I really didn't want this to turn into a legal argument Matt. The bottom line is that in my opinion (which is consistant with that of the industry) since Dos' tool/code will *only* work with my product, it is considered to an EULA violation by the terms of the OGL and SRD. I think I've been more than understanding in this matter, and I appreciate Dos sending me the code and respecting my ownership of the property. I had hoped that the matter would be closed.

The legal stance of an RPG publisher's property has been an argued topic by law students since the days of TSR, and to be honest I really don't care to argue this here since to do so would prevent me from contributing to my business.

If you think Dos was perfectly right in his creating of the tool then you would have been within your right to post it and make me go through the legal actions to have you take it down. I had hoped that since I had approached this fairly and openly to all parties involved that we could all work together for the betterment of the FG community. If someone wants to argue your individual points then they are welcome to do so. I think I've made myself clear as to how I feel in my previous posts.

Regards,

It sounds like your angry with me and I am not quite sure why. I am sorry if that is the case.

I took the tool down because I respect what you are trying to do in the community and out of an abundance of caution with respect to your rights. I felt that was more important than my own judgment and or estimate of the merit of your claims.

The point of my post was for my education and my education only. On multiple occasions, I made clear that I didn't understand the claim and that I was willing to be educated on the topic. That was not intended to bait anyone or to induce them into an argument.

Really, I had no intention of arguing with you and I am not sure what cause we would have to argue as I promptly complied with the only request you have made of me (taking down the files).

In any event, you have made your position clear on this issue (which I appreciate - thank you) and at least now I understand what you perceive to be the legal basis for your contentions.

Again, I have an immense amount of respect for what you are trying to accomplish and will always err on the side of caution so as to not be a barrier to your success.

Again, I apologize as I have clearly made you angry...

Best of lcuk personally and professionally,
Matt

[Thore_Ironrock]

It sounds like your angry with me and I am not quite sure why. I am sorry if that is the case.

Not angry Matt ... frustrated ... and not with you. I apologize if I've come off as such, some of which is probably the strain of Gen Con shining through.

I've been around the RPG industry for 23 years now, and it disappoints me that sometimes people are very uneducated by a publisher's basic copyrights -- or in some cases choose to ignore them. I know for a fact that this is not the case here, but unfortunately there are those out there that could care less, and those are the people I need to protect myself from.

It is also not just my issue today. For several months now I've tried to educate basic copyright issue to the FG community, since it is important to me and my business that FG ***not*** turn into a vehicle for copyright infringement. I guess sometimes I feel like a man on an island in this, as regardless of what I say it seems like sometimes no one is listening.

Again, I know that some of this is because some people just don't understand what the OGL, SRD, or EULA really mean, but in today's world (and this industry) you would think that responsible folks would make it a point to know these key issues -- especially in this world of torrents, file sharing, and the like.

Even this past Gen Con some of my publishing friends have said that copyright violation is bigger now than it ever was in the days when a large portion of the gaming industry thought TSR was stepping all over their 1st amendment rights. There are even some who believe that file sharing and the like are responsible for some of the recent decline in the RPG industry, which recently has caused several publishers to pack it in. In this, I tend to agree.

Like I said Matt I'm not angry, just a bit tired of feeling like I'm fighting this battle by myself on these boards. I would hope that the commitment of myself and my company to put out products to further the FG community would be enough, but it seems like sometimes people have "selective forum reading syndrome". I hope that after all of this today people will feel better about FG and copyrights, and I'm sure I will after I get some sleep and my feet stop hurting from walking the exhibit hall all weekend. ::wink::

That all said, I would love to work with you and Adventuresome Dreams down the road to better the FG community, and hopefully avoid these issues in the future.

Regards,