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  1. #21
    For those that might be interested in this sort of thing, I've created a thread on Paizo's Pathfinder Rules forum to address this specific issue. The hope is to try and generate a FAQ from Paizo. But seeing how long it's been an issue without any weigh-in from them, I'm not holding my breath. At the very least, it might allow us to read the FOR and AGAINST arguments that exist in the PF communities to give us a better idea of how we'd rule on it.
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  2. #22
    Blackfoot's Avatar
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    Honestly, the rules are pretty clear that you can't use Cha based abilities while raging. Performance is Cha based. The Skald class sets an odd work around.. but.. honestly.. if you play this build in standard.. you should be fine... there are plenty of ways to make it work there.
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  3. #23
    That's where we might disagree concerning Bardic Performance. Rage says I can't use any Charisma-based skills other than Intimidate. But am I considered using a skill if I'm not making a skill check, taking 10, or taking 20? Some Performances require skill checks to be made. In those instances I would agree that you can't use those. But other Performances don't require any ranks and do not require a check. So is a skill really being used then?

    Remember that Rage is actually talking about TWO restrictions; skills and abilities. Bardic Performance is an ability that sometimes requires a skill check. Inspire Courage does not require any such check.

    You might consider it to be a Charisma-based ability, but Rage never says anything about charisma-based abilities (such as what a Lilitu Demon has). It only talks about abilities that require concentration or patience. But since Inspire Courage is not listed as requiring patience or concentration, then it doesn't.
    Last edited by cmdisc; May 5th, 2016 at 18:51.
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  4. #24
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    To be honest.. the whole rage thing is pretty squishy.. can you fire a bow? If you've ever tried to fire a bow accurately at any sort of range.. you'll know that it requires concentration and patience.. so no bows either?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfoot View Post
    Honestly, the rules are pretty clear that you can't use Cha based abilities while raging. Performance is Cha based. The Skald class sets an odd work around.. but.. honestly.. if you play this build in standard.. you should be fine... there are plenty of ways to make it work there.
    I tend to agree - perform is a cha skill, inspire courage is a performance, because you don't have to have to roll a check (friendly effect) shouldn't be a clause to allow it to work...
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  6. #26
    Someone dug up a few postings from James Jacobs on this issue. In the first, JJ mentions that the text saying "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects..." is just fluff text left over from 3.5 and not meant to be used as a rule. I know he's normally not a rules guy, but in his following post, he mentions how he had a hand in designing the Bard in the CRB.

    Posts are from here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&p...ons-Here#16460

    Yes this is just his opinion and not a FAQ. But in the absence of anything else, this is all we really have to go on to interpret what the rule is. Also considering he is in the know about the Bard's design, that gives weight to his words.

    And to be honest it's actually a good thing that the bit of text is only fluff. Because otherwise the rules are in conflict with each other. According to the CRB, "...whenever you attempt to use a skill, you must make a skill check."

    Since Inspire Courage doesn't require a skill check, then by RAW you can't be considered to be using a skill.

    What may be the issue here is mixing Skills and Abilities. We can't use charisma-based skills while raging (other than Intimidate). But there is no such limit on Abilities. A barbarian/cleric can still channel negative energy against his enemies while raging and that is a charisma-based ability. We know he can use it because it isn't listed as requiring any patience or concentration or a forbidden skill check to activate.
    Last edited by cmdisc; May 6th, 2016 at 07:01.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfoot View Post
    To be honest.. the whole rage thing is pretty squishy.. can you fire a bow? If you've ever tried to fire a bow accurately at any sort of range.. you'll know that it requires concentration and patience.. so no bows either?
    True. Firing a bow, scaling a wall, or doing just about anything other than flailing away at something requires some degree of concentration or patience. And yet we know Rage specifically allows for Climbing a wall because it's the focus of one of the Rage Powers. It really doesn't help that they put an undefined term into the rules. Concentration is defined. Skill use is defined. Patience is.....

    ???
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  8. #28
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    Do we really want to start talking about whether or not barberics should be allowed to channel while raging? Inspire Courage IS kinda like casting a spell... I'm not quite sure why you are fighting so hard on this one cmd. I can certainly see both sides of it.. hence the position I took on the whole thing.
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  9. #29
    If we are going to discuss what we think the rules are saying, as PFS GMs it really is our job to call these types of cases. And we want to make sure we get them right. Am I taking this too seriously? Maybe. But I can't base a ruling on what is "kinda like" something if RAW seems to be telling me otherwise. I would agree that Spell-like abilities are kinda like casting a spell, because they are defined as such. But Inspire Courage and Channeling are Supernatural Abilities, which are treated differently. They don't fall into the "concentration required" category. And if they don't require a skill check to activate, then per the CRB, they aren't using a skill. As for "patience", I can only assume this is flavor text as the word has no game definition to it.

    That said, yes there are certainly enough grey areas that are going to generate table variation when there is an absence of anything concrete (Greater Trip or Greater Feint, anyone?). But after seeing JJ's posts, I'm not so sure this is one anymore. The crux of the "No Inspire while Raging" argument is based on text that JJ has defined as flavor and not rules. And this is from a guy who says he had quite a bit of hands-on with designing the Bard. So I can only assume he knows what he's talking about. Since we have nothing official that contradicts this, we have no reason not to take him at his word.

    So what am I left with? Inspire Courage doesn't need a skill check, so per the CRB it isn't using a skill. It is a Supernatural ability that is not defined as requiring patience or concentration. So as ridiculous as some might think it sounds, there really is nothing barring it from being used while Raging.

    In all sincerity, I really can't come to any other conclusion at this point.

    Besides, a raging death metal bard whipping his allies into a frenzy as he screams "We are Death! You are Dead!" over and over again or a negative Gorum cleric charging headlong into a group of enemies as he rages in melee and quick channels the lot of 'em, are rather fitting images of how that all might work.

    <shrug>
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  10. #30
    The problems for me are wordsmithing (not intended as pejorative) and the fundamental nature of rage.

    Wordsmithing: I see it as a hole in the rules and see no reason why rage should not affect charisma-based skills and abilities. I agree that the rules don't say that explicitly, but I think the rules are in error and need FAQ treatment or errata, one way or the other. It's one short sentence. It shouldn't take nearly 10 years to resolve. However, I also agree that the rules should not be open to interpretation, so this is a tough one for me. Also, this debate existed prior to Pathfinder, so it seems like an oversight or gap, rather than as an intended consequence of good design and I dislike having to interpret it. But, I guess if it's RAW only, and, if forced, I will have to rule against my conscience and what I see as common sense RAI rage restrictions. So...cmdisc is right at the level of RAW, but I see it as broken.

    Nature of Rage: Putting aside the wordsmithing issue, the explicit things Barbarians are allowed to use during rage are specified in the class description, afforded by special rage-friendly classes (Skald/Bloodrager, etc.) or are granted every other level in the form of Rage Powers (a number of which are supernatural abilities). cmdisc is right that Inspire Courage is a supernatural ability, but so are various rage powers. The point of limiting the rate at which Barbarians get Su/Ex rage powers in the class table is to limit what other things they can explicitly do while raging (or when Bloodragers get spells, etc.). Allowing them to act like bards while raging is giving them another supernatural rage power that is not granted by their class and seems outside the scope of what they should be able to do. Specifically, there are rage powers like Reckless Abandon (Ex)-APG that require the barbarian to sacrifice an additional -1 AC to get a +1 on attack rolls only (no damage bonus, increases every 4 levels). So, why should a barbarian with a level of bard be able to grant +1 to hit and damage for free to himself and all allies when it actually trumps a rage power that he can only get through barbarian level progression?

    (The obvious answer is that it shouldn't and what's even more perplexing is that it is from the APG which trails the CRB and was added even given the long history of debate. So, it seems like there was no Paizo parsing on this issue, at least from CRB through APG...and I will add that the likely interpretation for the -1 AC is that there's only so much a barbarian can do/focus on. And, it is technically the inverse of Combat Expertise, where the furious barbarian loses focus on personal safety in favor of smashing things.)

    I also agree that Barbarians can scream "Kill the halflings!" with their insane bloodlust all day long, but that act is Intimidating towards the target, rather than Inspiring in the bardic sense.

    Solutions: FAQ, errata, etc., and soon, I hope.
    Last edited by HoloGnome; May 7th, 2016 at 04:59.

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