CORE Rules Question: Bardarian

[bigboom]

Hi Guys,

I've got a rules question for a character I'm building to take part in the ongoing CORE PFS campaign being organized by Blackfoot and cmdisc, so I'd like to get your opinion on this question (although I'm happy to hear what other GMs have to say as well). I've done some reading around and I haven't been able to find consensus...simply that different GMs may rule differently. Depending on what you guys think, I may change my character build accordingly.


The Question
With a bard that has a splash level of barbarian (for example, barbarian 1/bard 4), can the character start up a bardic performance one round (most importantly, inspire courage) then in the next and future rounds, go into a rage while continuing to maintain the bardic performance?


Relevant Texts
Bardic Performance (CRB, pg 35): "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired."

"Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round."

bigboom's note: Some bardic performances require a performance skill check but others do not. For example, countersong (Su) and distraction (Su) do, but inspire courage (Su) does not.


Rage (Ex) (CRB, pg 32): "A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess."

"While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."


Supernatural Abilities (Su) (CRB, pg 186): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) (CRB, pg 186): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity.


Perform Skill (CRB, pg 102, 103): "Special: A bard must have ranks in specific Perform categories to use some of his Bardic Performance abilities. Consult the Bardic Performance section of the bard class description in Chapter 3 for more details."


Comments from James Jacobs, Paizo Creative Director, located here:
"My opinion is that that particular line you cite is a holdover from the 3.5 version of the game that should be rewritten or just cut from the game—it's slipped by the errata so far because it's flavor text, not actual rules text, so the rules mongering seems to have missed it.

(bigboom's note: this is in reference to the first line of the 'bardic performance' description that states: "A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.")

THAT SAID... there are a few abilities that DO require and benefit from having ranks in Perform. That use of the word "some" is very important.

Inspire courage does not require any ranks in perform at all.

Countersong and Distraction, on the other hand, do.

That's why we used the word "some" in that statement."


Conclusion
So here's what I think based upon all the text written above...

It seems to me that yes, it is possible to start up a bardic performance and maintain it while raging but only for those bardic performances that do not require a performance skill: fascinate, inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance.

Other bardic performances that require the use of a Charisma-based performance skill or are spell-like abilities cannot be started up and maintained while raging: countersong, distraction, suggestion (Sp), frightening tune (Sp), Mass Suggestion (Sp).

So what do you guys think? At the end of the day, there seems to be valid arguments either way, so I don't think there's a right or wrong answer and I'm not looking to start up a debate. Just looking to see how our GMs would rule on this situation before I dive in.

Thanks for reading through this crazy long post!!!


Updated Summary (3 May 2016)
So based on the feedback, the argument for allowing bardic performance while raging is:

• Abilities that require charisma-based skills, concentration, or patience cannot be used while raging.
• Bardic performances that are marked as supernatural abilities do not require concentration but those marked as spell-like abilities do require concentration.
• Only some bardic performances require a charisma-based perform skill. Others are not dependent upon the use of charisma-based skills.
• Patience is not a game mechanic and so is subject to interpretation on a case-by-case basis.
• So if bardic performance is allowed while raging, it is limited to these: inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance

The argument against bardic performance while raging is:

• Executing a bardic performance will logically require a person to concentrate and focus on that performance
• Rage is mechanically intended to boost up and focus a character on damage dealing with the downside of precluding the character from doing pretty much anything else. To maintain a bardic performance would conflict with the intended mechanic.
• If barbarians were intended to have the ability to do anything else while raging, then abilities such as "Moment of Clarity" or other non-core classes/archetypes that allow barbarian-like classes to do other things while raging.

Ultimately, because there is no definitive answer, it is up to the GM running the table to make a ruling. But all agree it would be best to let the GM know ahead of time so that a decision can be made beforehand to avoid using in-game time to make a ruling.

[cmdisc]

I'd have to look into it further, but my knee-jerk reaction is that with Inspire Courage, you're not making any Charisma check nor using a skill. And I think a raging Bard-arian is basically what we get when we think of any Death Metal or Screamo artists.

[Malkavian_Andi]

It seems to me that yes, it is possible to start up a bardic performance and maintain it while raging but only for those bardic performances that do not require a performance skill: fascinate, inspire courage, inspire courage, inspire competence, dirge of doom, inspire greatness, soothing performance, inspire heroics, and deadly performance.

I wouldn't go for Fascinate: "The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents this ability from working." I would definitely treat a raging barbarian as "other danger".

Other than that, I agree.

[HoloGnome]

Free action or not, and whether or not Inspire Courage requires ranks in Perform skill, bardic performance logically requires concentration. So, sorry, I do not agree that a Barbarian/Bard can use Inspire Courage while raging, except in the case of using something like Moment of Clarity (but doing that would have limited effectiveness). You could, for example, "drop out of rage" with Moment of Clarity for 1 round to give allies a bonus on a critical synchronized attack -- might be worth it in limited circumstances...and only works for 1 round.

If you can explain how you can maintain your performance without concentrating on what you're doing (saying, singing, dancing), then I might tend to agree. Otherwise, you're probably singing gibberish or flopping around like a fish on land. The fact that there is only 1 rage power (Moment of Clarity) that allows you to step out of rage for 1 round to do something without suffering dropping out of rage penalties should be a clue that Barbarians are not intended to be able to do other things while raging.

If you want to go non-core, then there are are other ways that you could achieve your goal, including, perhaps, dove-tailing rage with Lingering Performance (APG). I might also allow a 4th level Bloodrager to do it (but not cast bard spells, which is specifically excluded). If a character is able to concentrate on spellcasting while raging, then the implication is that he can use verbal and somatic abilities while in rage, which also opens the door to performance. You could also use rage powers like Battle Roar (ACG) or Terrifying Howl (this one is CORE) if you want to "sing" like a Barbarian.

Bottom line: There are special classes like Bloodrager that allow you to do other things while raging, so unless you're one of those classes, as a Barbarian, you're pretty much just raging, unless you have a feat or rage ability that lets you do otherwise. As a Barbarian, you get huge benefits while raging at the penalty of not being able to concentrate on other tasks and, in this case, trying to use both Bard and Barbarian doesn't really work.

However, if you proceed, you should probably expect table variation.

[cmdisc]

There have been discussions on the Paizo Rules forum about this issue. In looking deeper, this is my take on it:

Inspire Courage does not require any skill checks to use. So it doesn't violate the limitation of "no charisma-based checks other than..." put on you by Raging. Nor does it state anywhere that it requires concentration. So you're not breaking Rage there either.

Rage DOES mention not being able to do anything that requires Patience, but "Patience" is not a game-defined term. So it's really up to the GM what that means. Some would argue that trying to scale a cliff would require patience. But according to Pathfinder, you are free to climb while Raging. So patience isn't really much of anything on its own.

Plus remember that Inspire Courage can be audible or visual. So I'd say it really depends on HOW you are inspiring your allies, to know whether it's possible while raging.

No you cannot Rage while trying to recite poetry in order to tap into that special bravery hidden deep within all men's hearts to inspire them onward into those great moments of glory shared by all heroes of legend.

But you can certainly flail about and curse and insult your enemies while whipping your allies up into a frenzy. That counts as Inspire Courage. And I'd say you can easily do that while Raging.

Just think of any riots that you've seen. The leaders flailing about and cursing and frothing as they stir up the crowd to the point where they are smashing windows and burning cars. That is a real life example of Inspiring Courage while Raging.

[HoloGnome]

To me, if that were the case, then every raging barbarian leading the charge would automatically Inspire Courage. I will grant that a raging barbarian running into the fray is pretty inspiring, but you are not Inspiring Courage using a dedicated bardic special ability, which would seem to require organized thought and some form of concentration (stated or not) instead of animalistic rage to say or do something inspiring (above and beyond the norm), whether or not it requires a dedicated skill check.

Additionally, besides Bloodrager, there is also obviously the Skald class (+ archetypes), which has the Raging Song ability, etc., that combines these things as a class ability with audible components only.

So, I would put forward that if you want the benefit of a class that offers a special ability, you can be that class (or take a feat or rage power, etc.). Otherwise, no, and not in CORE where those classes don't exist. It's basically doing an end-run around what seem to be very clear rage restrictions.

You can have either clarity of thought to inspire others with bardic abilities or you can sacrifice that clarity (which includes even the most basic use of bardic abilities) for furiously fatiguing rage as a barbarian that provides incredible buffs to your combat abilities. If you want an extra +1 to hit and damage, enchant your weapon.

I won't assert that the debate isn't a valid one, but it takes 2 seconds for Paizo to write: Barbarians may use Inspire Courage while raging or Barbarians may not use Inspire Courage while raging in the CORE FAQ. Given the reasoning above, the length of time this debate has existed (over a decade, or at least 8-9 since Pathfinder came into being) without a simple addition to the FAQ from Paizo, and the much more exotic questions they have answered, I will not allow it at my table. If Paizo FAQs it in the affirmative, then great!

Until then, this one is clearly in the gray area, so rule as you see fit.

[Blackfoot]

Seems like a situation where you can 'expect table variation' .. so I'd avoid it. Lingering Performance would probably be your best ticket here.

Oh right.. but that's not CORE.

[cmdisc]

To me, if that were the case, then every raging barbarian leading the charge would automatically Inspire Courage.

Well we know that barbarians do not have the special ability to create a supernatural Inspire Courage effect as a games mechanic. So that wouldn't really work.

I will grant that a raging barbarian running into the fray is pretty inspiring, but you are not Inspiring Courage using a dedicated bardic special ability, which would seem to require organized thought and some form of concentration (stated or not) instead of animalistic rage to say or do something inspiring (above and beyond the norm), whether or not it requires a dedicated skill check.

Regardless of what "would seem" to be, we are going off of the stated rules as they are defined. No skill check is being made. No Concentration is required. And "patience" is not a game-defined term.

Additionally, besides Bloodrager, there is also obviously the Skald class (+ archetypes), which has the Raging Song ability, etc., that combines these things as a class ability with audible components only.

A skald's song does not Inspire Courage. It Inspires Rage....which is a different ability and game effect. They cannot be compared.

It's basically doing an end-run around what seem to be very clear rage restrictions.

This is where I have to ask, what specific rule as spelled out in Rage is being violated or gotten around? For example, if a spell is Mind-Effecting, it is listed as such. And if it isn't listed as such, then it isn't Mind-effecting...even if we feel it should be. The Daze spell is mind-effecting. The Daze variant channel ability is not. Undead cannot be dazed by the spell, but they CAN be dazed by the channel because the rider effect is not mind-effecting.

Pathfinder rules can be very specific in what they are and what they allow. There is nothing in the Inspire Courage rules that I see that violates the restrictions set forth for Rage.

We are not using any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills.
We are not using an ability that says it requires concentration.
We are not using an ability that says it requires patience.

Inspire Courage's description does not say that it requires any skill check, concentration, or patience. So if I were to say it does, that would be inserting a House Rule as far as I can tell.

...it takes 2 seconds for Paizo to write: Barbarians may use Inspire Courage while raging or Barbarians may not use Inspire Courage while raging in the CORE FAQ. Given the reasoning above, the length of time this debate has existed (over a decade, or at least 8-9 since Pathfinder came into being) without a simple addition to the FAQ from Paizo, and the much more exotic questions they have answered, I will not allow it at my table. If Paizo FAQs it in the affirmative, then great!

I agree it would. Paizo has been known to not tackle several issues that would seem simple to fix. I don't know their motivation, or lack of, for that. <shrug>

[cmdisc]

That said, Bigboom, if you want to build the character concept, I say go for it. Just check with the GM ahead of time and if they are set against it, bring something else to the table.

[HoloGnome]

I see it as rules parsing to min-max something that breaks very clear rage mechanics that are intended to prevent exactly what you are trying to allow. Barbarians don't easily have the presence or clarity of mind to do anything other than rage and smash, which also should not include things like bardic performance just because there happens to be a narrow min-max wording gap.

If barbarians did have clarity of mind to do something else, there wouldn't be a rage powers like Moment of Clarity that give them the necessary presence of mind (and temporarily suspend rage benefits), not to mention the classes/archetypes that allow barbarian-ilk characters to do other things, including spellcasting and bardic performance. For example, the point of Skald is that it is a similar ability that specifically combines rage with bardic performance, not that it specifically uses inspire courage.

Otherwise, if you want to look at the Bard, bardic performance is inherently a charisma-based ability that can be used for 4+CHA mod rounds per day. Also, conditions that inhibit skill checks, typically also inhibit ability checks -- like shaken, for example. So, should rage just block named skill checks or should that block logically also include charisma-based abilities? If a raging barbarian doesn't have presence of mind to use basic diplomacy, then why should he be able to use his charisma to inspire courage which also attempts to influence the attitudes of allies for the benefit of combat? I suppose I see inspire courage as akin to diplomacy, informally, not that that means anything.

Speaking of shaken, if you want to do something that is clearly within the rules to confer a party benefit, then create a barbarian that has Intimidate skill and related powers and can give enemies the shaken condition so that they get a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

>We are not using an ability that says it requires concentration.

No - it doesn't specifically say it requires concentration, but I don't see a way for a barbarian to be able to do that without having the presence of mind to be able to concentrate on something other than his own blinding rage and direct combat actions, and particularly in the case of an ability that is obviously charisma-based (which seems like it leans towards exclusion).

The barbarian is already powerful enough, is intended not to be able to do other things while raging, except maybe intimidate (which makes a lot of sense), and min-maxing that tries to use bardic performance on top of that is attempting to heap another +1/+1 on to the pile. The only thing in its favor is that it is limited to 4+CHA times per day, but that breaks down very rapidly in the face of feats like Extra Performance (+6 times/day).

Again, the debate is a reasonable one, but I cannot allow this combo at my tables unless there is a Paizo FAQ or other formal ruling.

But, hang on...one more perspective...playing devil's advocate against my own argument for a moment, I have to wonder, in terms of action economy, if a Barbarian forgoes their first standard action to initiate bardic performance, potentially also sacrificing hasted or iterative attacks, has great BAB and attack bonuses with rage + power attack and 2-handing that likely hit in most cases and deals massive damage (plus crit possibility), is the +1/+1 worth it for battles that last less than 10 rounds...and usually less than 5? It would seem to be doing the party more harm than good.

Raging Barbarian/4 with base 20 STR, +1 Greatsword and Power Attack:

To Hit: 4 BAB+7 STR+1 Sword-2 PA = +10 to hit
Damage: +7 STR +1 Sword +4 PA +6 two-handing = +18 damage
Minimum Damage (2d6): 20

So, activating performance in the best case might cost a minimum of 20 points of damage from a well-built Barbarian on a successful attack. In the worst case on a max damage crit, the damage would be 60. Then, there's haste. Either way, the party might be hard-pressed to recover the lost damage and action economy from a barbarian activating inspire courage. Another better use of a standard would be for the barbarian to drink a potion of Enlarge Person.

In the end, whether or not it's allowed, I guess inspire courage is a poor build option for a Barbarian, depending on when he activates it.