Michael Brock Posts About Cheating In PFS

[GM BK]

Spotted this on their forums today, and figured I would pass it on.

Do Not Encourage Cheating

His main reasons for posting this are related to:

-8 player tables
-Playing out of tier and applying a Chronicle incorrectly (i.e. Playing a 6th level PC in a Tier 7-11 game and applying a Chronicle to that 6th level PC)
--Changing the mechanics of a scenario ( a little fluff change for roleplaying purposes is not a problem, adding creatures is)
--Failing to report a game when it is played by PreGens so it can be GMed/Played at a later time with real characters once they are of the correct level.
--Failing to apply a GM Chronicle sheet and saving them up to a later date when multiple Chronicles are all applied at the same time
--Intentionally seeking to obstruct another player from completing a faction mission

Not saying I've encountered anything of the above, or any other instances of cheating here, but Paizo isn't known for making posts like this so I thought it was worth sharing.

[GM BK]

And now that I look back, it's from 2012.... lol! Old news!

[cmdisc]

It's ok. Still a good reminder to everyone. I haven't seen this happening here, but against still a good reminder to keep us from getting to lax.

[Malkavian_Andi]

And now that I look back, it's from 2012.... lol! Old news!

yep, I didn't expect it to be something new, knowing that Mike Brock left Paizo last year and Tonya Woldridge is in charge.
But I agree, it's still a valid point (as with the online chronicles issue some time ago, I didn't expect some of those things were actually done by people).

[GM BK]

Ya, I had recently asked a question on the Paizo forums concerning recording items purchased on a chronicle and the general consensus from majority of the folks that responded was that they filled out the XP, PP and Gold rewards, then signed it and hand it to the player for him to finish later, which is against the rules within the guide book. a GM is only suppose to sign chronicles that have been completely filled out. I was told I was wasting my time by doing it that way. 0.o

[kwarner1986]

Ya, I had recently asked a question on the Paizo forums concerning recording items purchased on a chronicle and the general consensus from majority of the folks that responded was that they filled out the XP, PP and Gold rewards, then signed it and hand it to the player for him to finish later, which is against the rules within the guide book. a GM is only suppose to sign chronicles that have been completely filled out. I was told I was wasting my time by doing it that way. 0.o

*gets a mob together with saps*
"So you want to play by the rules, huh."

After my first three months playing, I didn't realize that all my items had to be on the chronicle sheet as well as a tracking sheet (even though no one looks at them), and let's just say, I had a lot to fix on Rebecca and Evelyn. Live and learn, then force your GM to add your stuff before they sign.

[GM BK]

Actually, you do not need to itemize on the chronicle sheet anymore. they changed that when the ITS was introduced back in season 5. although a gm still needs to approve your purchases, all you need to record on the chronicle sheet is the gold spent.

[HoloGnome]

Actually, you do not need to itemize on the chronicle sheet anymore. they changed that when the ITS was introduced back in season 5. although a gm still needs to approve your purchases, all you need to record on the chronicle sheet is the gold spent.

Per the Guide, you do need to itemize. Chronicle sheets should show all purchases and, logically, the Item Tracking Sheet is an index into the items of 25gp or more purchased across all chronicles. If there were no itemized lists on the chronicle sheets, then anything less than 25gp would never be shown, including every 1st level spell you scribe and all kinds of other gear, etc. From my perspective, the Season 7 Guide is unambiguous on these points, but whether or not GMs follow those indications is another matter.

A GM must be present in order for you to purchase items. This can be done before, during or after the adventure. ALL TRANSACTIONS must be recorded on the scenario’s Chronicle sheet and reflected on your character’s Inventory Tracking Sheet.

An Inventory Tracking Sheet has been included at the end of this document and is to be used for tracking all purchases of 25 GPs or more, as well as what Chronicle sheet the item was purchased from (if any) and any consumables used.

So, until Paizo changes or amends the Guide, if your PC purchases something, it should always be shown on a chronicle. If it is 25gp or more, it should also be indexed on the ITS with the number of the chronicle where it is shown so that GMs can quickly review your high-level ITS instead of having to wade through each individual chronicle (one document vs. many, where the chronicles are the comprehensive reference if anyone wants to dig deeper).

I also prefer to note items/consumables used on chronicles, since it improves tracking by adventure, helps players recall what they used and when they used it and also facilitates audits, when necessary.

[GM BK]

I will respectfully disagree. That rule could be interpreted two ways...

One, it could be interpreted that you are required to record an itemized list of purchases, even though it does not specifically state so... or, it could be interpreted that by totaling the expenditure and recording that on the chronicle sheet, along with recording them on the ITS, that you have fulfilled the requirement that all transactions be recorded. Considering they've removed the fields in which to record an itemized list of transactions, and have introduced a tracking sheet specifically for those transactions, i am going to lean towards the latter interpretation. IMO, logic would dictate that if they really, really wanted us to itemize on the chronicle, that they would've left those fields in place so that we may do so.

Even so, if a player provides me with an itemized list that i can copy/paste onto the chronicle sheet without having to do each transaction individually, i have no problems taking care of that. If they send it to me in a format that i can't copy/paste in one swift action, then i feel perfectly within my rights to total up the purchases and record the gold piece value of the transaction that way. Especially if it's a big list of purchases, like from a GM credit build or similar situation.

Technically though, we as GM's are not obligated to record anything beyond what the player earned(xp, boons, etc.) and to cross out any items or boons that were not earned. At that point, we are suppose to hand the chronicle over to the player, and they are to fill out the rest. Then, once that is complete, they give it back to us for review and if it all lines up, we sign it. That's the way chronicles are suppose to be handled, but considering the hassle that could evolve into, i understand why we do things the way we do around here.

Lastly, I would like to refer to this thread here. Not only did John Compton respond to it, but the comments from those that replied would indicate that totaling the purchases and recording the GP value is perfectly acceptable.

[HoloGnome]

RAW is as I've stated above. A GM must be present for all purchases, all transactions must be listed on the chronicle and the ITS only lists items greater than 25gp. Also, I admit that it can be hard when running game store games in 4 hr. slots to get it all done - at 10:30PM, people want to go home. So, some details inevitably gets lost. I also had a similar conversation wth cmdisc not long ago.

Good thread link (albeit long), and I understand the intent of John Compton's remarks, but, in this case, Paizo has not modified the later Season 7 Guide text for how to complete chronicles and ITSes to sync up with his remarks. Further, the ITS breaks down when you have items that are less than 25gp (or items that you buy with prestige). I don't understand the disconnect between JC's remarks and the latest Guide text which should have been changed if his remarks were meant to modify RAW. Maybe they will do it in the future or release an errata.

However, in the Land of Gray, I suppose if you want to define a "transaction" as a bulk purchase of items, that could also arguably be within RAW, since the meaning of "transaction" is not explicitly stated. cmdisc - maybe this point is another input that provides common ground on the issue of starting gear.

For example, I guess it could be:

#1 transaction
item:value
item value

- or -

#2 transaction
item, item, item, item: value

- or -

#3 transaction
items > 25gp (see ITS): value

#4 transaction
I have my own ITS spreadsheet: value

I use a mix of #1 and #2, depending on the cost of the items and available space.

In my opinion (and just in trying to manage the chaos of my own characters with my minimal free time), failure to list the items that are being purchased (whether as a bulk list or itemized) on chronicles makes it very hard to retrace your steps. BK - as you say, it is easy enough to paste a list of items followed by a single value into a chronicle (and I have never had a problem finding room for that kind of info in addition to other stuff). I have done it many times and put the summary gold figure - like for starting gear, etc. It's really not a problem that needs to be fixed.

For those who play in my games, I want my chronicles to be easy for any GM or player to follow and I feel accountable when signing my name.
So, in my games, expect the following:
1. Use method #1 or #2 to show all purchases (per RAW)
2. Note all consumables used, including wand charges - if you want it to say "replenish" to optimize the ITS for > 25gp, fine with me
3. Note all conditions gained that are not resolved at the end of the adventure and/or what cost in gp or PP that was used to resolve them, as applicable
4. Note special or shared expenses - like bribes and/or shared costs of Raise Dead along with the PFS IDs of the players who contributed to prevent questions in the future
5. Note faction goal(s), as requested by the player, where relevant
6. Note Special session boons or pregen instructions/elections for credit so that players know how to handle the credit in the future
7. Note anything else you want your chronicle to show, since it's your character's history

Also, I have no problem sending revised, signed chronicles, as necessary - mistakes, changes - whatever. I expect the player to use the correct version as part of their PC's history. If it were paper, we would edit the paper. Since it's digital, we have to send another digital copy.