Vitality Extension

[bnickelsen]

Let me revisit my thinking on this and work out a few scenarios, it is possible I am looking at it all wrong

[TASagent]

No problem. I appreciate feedback in any case, and am certainly willing to debate the merits of each approach.

I encourage examining scenarios with the more intuitive (and official) view of "Current HP" and "Max HP" instead of thinking about wounds. Then figure out what the wounds should be after you have your answer.

Anything that reduces max HP, but doesn't also reduce wounds, effectively does extra damage, dropping the player to a lower current hp value, and bringing him that much closer to death. The concept of Vitality wasn't created to increase the amount of damage enemies did, it was created to add a more significant long-term penalty to serious wounds, by limiting the effectiveness of immediate and long-term recovery. In the core system (as far as HP are concerned), players are completely restored to being fully healthy after at most 2 long rests (because of Hit Dice recovery). Vitality slows that process down, and makes you remember the serious wounds you take. But it's not supposed to also make a 22 damage crit bring a level 3 character 28 hit points closer to death.

[bnickelsen]

See the problem I keep running into is the concept of "Wounds" My party is having a hard time with it too. I now see why you are doing it and agree. below is my backup, I should have tested this first.

Attachment 10561

Thank you again

[TASagent]

No problem. Glad we're on the same page. When I was initially implementing it, I'd considered an alternative representation that would have removed this confusion, but caused other misunderstandings. Wounds could have represented the difference between your total max HP and your current HP. Then it wouldn't require any adjustments, and your Vit would determine the Minimum amount of wounds you could have. That would be slightly more intuitive, but cause other problems between the keyboard and the chair. If they accept that the wounds from your Total Max HP should change equal to the damage they just received, then they have to accept that the wounds measured from your Current Max HP must reduce, because the difference between the Current Max and the Total Max has grown.

[Griogre]

Personally, I read it as the target takes 4d8+3 necrotic damage. Then if the target blows the save he *also* loses the same amount of hit points from his max amount of HPs. So basically, yes if hit and if the PC blows his saves he de-facto takes double damage and can be dying.

[TASagent]

Griogre, if that was the case, why would such an ability defy convention and instruct you to reuse the previously rolled value?

The meaning as I've interpreted it could be rewritten as:

Hit: Make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw.
On Success: Take 4d8+3 necrotic damage to current hitpoints.
On Failure: Take 4d8+3 necrotic damage to current and maximum hitpoints.

Which makes more sense mechanically and logically than
On Failure: Reduce your current hitpoints by that same value again, and your maximum hitpoints by that same value once.

Plus, something you may find more compelling: there is no way a CR5 monster would have an at-will melee attack that is supposed to do the equivalent of 8d8+6 on a failed save.

[brautigan1]

Hit: 4d8+3 necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 14 con saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken.

I can't understand how there's any argument about it. What the heck do wounds have to do with max hp? Nothin'. The two things aren't even related here. You take the wounds, and then you take the HP max penalty. Simple as that.

The whole point of having your max HP lowered by the amount of wounds taken is that you can't be healed back up to what your max HP were. It's pretty freakin' harsh, too.

[TASagent]

I think you're agreeing with me, but what you said exactly highlighted the confusion some people are having.

Let's say someone has 21 max and current hit points. They take 10 damage. Now they have 11 hitpoints. If that attack is like the wraith's, and they fail the save, then it would reduce their max hit points by 10. I believe you agree with me when I say the character would then have 11 max hit points and 11 current hit points. That's simple and intuitive. Now let's redescribe the same situation in terms of wounds.

Someone has 21 max hit points and 0 wounds. They take 10 damage. Now they 10 wounds. They fail their save, and it reduces their max hit points by 10. Now they have 11 max hit points and 0 wounds. 0 wounds because their current hit points are 0 points away from their max. In other words, when max hit points are reduced, you need to reduce total wounds by the same amount in order to maintain the same number of current hit points.

[Griogre]

We're on the same page TASagent, I agree with your interpretation. I was commenting on the prior post. These type of creatures are nasty enough but they get ugly when the hit creature is taking damage from other sources. They also basically negate temp HPs or necrotic resistance on a failed save since even though a creature may take less damage from the hit for some reason the full damage is reduced from the max hps which may force the lost of addition hp to get down to the new maximum.

[brautigan1]

I think you're agreeing with me, but what you said exactly highlighted the confusion some people are having.

Let's say someone has 21 max and current hit points. They take 10 damage. Now they have 11 hitpoints. If that attack is like the wraith's, and they fail the save, then it would reduce their max hit points by 10. I believe you agree with me when I say the character would then have 11 max hit points and 11 current hit points. That's simple and intuitive. Now let's redescribe the same situation in terms of wounds.

Someone has 21 max hit points and 0 wounds. They take 10 damage. Now they 10 wounds. They fail their save, and it reduces their max hit points by 10. Now they have 11 max hit points and 0 wounds. 0 wounds because their current hit points are 0 points away from their max. In other words, when max hit points are reduced, you need to reduce total wounds by the same amount in order to maintain the same number of current hit points.

I suppose you could say I was agreeing with you. But that would be like saying you can "agree" with the idea that 2+2=4. Personally, I don't think the idea of "agreement" even enters into it.

I think I was actually simply saying that you are correct. Period. End of story.

...negate temp HPs or necrotic resistance on a failed save since even though a creature may take less damage from the hit for some reason the full damage is reduced from the max hps which may force the lost of addition hp to get down to the new maximum.

Why would you think that the "full damage" before any reductions or other modifiers are applied would determine the max HP reduced? If you have necrotic resistance, the "damage taken" would be reduced, and so would your max HP reduction. Because the Max HP reduction is based on "damage taken." There are no caveats. It's plain text: "damage taken."

That would be sick, lol.