Pathfinder ability drain vs. damage

[Blackfoot]

I'm a little confused by this fix... it does not seem to be consistent with the PF rules.

• [PFRPG] Odd number ability bonus effects would not affect roll modifiers. Fixed.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability...

Odd numbered ability penalty effects 'seem' to be irrelevant based on the PF rules.. the old functionality seems to have been correct.

[Moon Wizard]

I think this may be a debate for the PFRPG forum. I think HoloGnome reported the issue, and I found mixed results in my searches online.

Regards,
JPG

[Blackfoot]

It seems to be pretty clear here (which is where I found what I quoted below) but I guess someone could want to interpret it another way.
The functionality of Ability Damage on the Main Tab (rather than effect penalties) still works in accordance with the listed rules.

[Trenloe]

I think this may be a debate for the PFRPG forum. I think HoloGnome reported the issue, and I found mixed results in my searches online.

Blackfoot is right in part, but it is actually more complex and it depends on what is reducing an ability - in Pathfinder, you don't apply ability damage and ability penalties directly against the ability score, you apply the ability damage/penalty for every 2 points reduced (rounded down) no matter what the reduction would actually bring the ability score to. 1 damage/penalty = 0, 2 & 3 damage/penalty = -1, 4 & 5 damage/penalty = -2, etc..

Ability drain *is* applied directly to to the ability score and the resulting change in the ability modifier recalculated based of the actual ability score after drain. i.e. it does not follow the damage/penalty 2-points per -1 penalty rules.

Likewise for bonuses: "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."

"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours"

So, to summarise:

• Ability damage and penalties (such as from spells) use the -1 penalty per 2 points lost rule. Ability bonuses that last less than 24 hours (or last more than 24 hours but during the first 24 hours) have a similar every 2 points = +1 bonus rule.
• Ability drain is applied directly to the ability. Ability bonuses that have a duration of greater than a day are applied directly against the ability.

All of these rules are pretty clear in the Ability Score Bonuses and Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain sections of the PRD in the Glossary.

[Moon Wizard]

Okay, that explains some of the debate. However, the question remains as to what the implementation should be.

The 3.5E/PFRPG ruleset currently has no mechanism to qualify ability damage as drain vs. damage/penalty (plus 3.5E doesn't need since they are the same in 3.5E (I think)). At the moment, the only simple way I see is to add ability drain vs. ability damage fields. But, this creates quite a bit of user confusion in the UI (plus the rules themselves are confusing in this case), plus there's no place to put the field without additional clutter.

Seems like one place where PFRPG tried to simplify, and forgot one case.

Thanks,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Moved to new thread.
JPG

[Blackfoot]

I guess it could be handled with a modifier like...
STR:-1 drain
STR:-1 damage
or something like that.
Which honestly might be a bit better as it is more informative for the GM and Players.

[Trenloe]

The 3.5E/PFRPG ruleset currently has no mechanism to qualify ability damage as drain vs. damage/penalty (plus 3.5E doesn't need since they are the same in 3.5E (I think)).

Just checking through the PFRPG ruleset - the "Dmg" column on the main page of the character sheet calculates using the 2-points-equals-1-bonus/penalty, so it is logical to have ability effects do the same.

In order to cater for more permanent ability modifiers, could the base ability field be changed to a "temporary modifier" field so that more permanent bonuses/penalties could be applied using CTRL+mousewheel and visually tracked?

This would be the least impact to the ruleset (other than having to re-code the ability effects to be 2-points-equals-1-bonus/penalty) and will allow better tracking of more permanent changes to abilities without them relying on effects. Use effects and/or the "Dmg" column for temporary modifications to the ability and use the modifier field on the main ability for permanent changes.

[Moon Wizard]

Or I guess that the damage fields could be classified as drain. And, all effects would apply to 2-to-1 rule.

Only read-only fields can have modifier widgets, so couldn't do the abilities that way. I believe the bonus fields already have widgets?

JPG

[Trenloe]

Or I guess that the damage fields could be classified as drain. And, all effects would apply to 2-to-1 rule.

That could work, but it would have to be drain and permanent bonus rolled into one - might get messy.

Only read-only fields can have modifier widgets, so couldn't do the abilities that way. I believe the bonus fields already have widgets?

Yeah, the bonus fields already have the widgets, but these can't be used for odd ability adjustments - i.e. a 1 change on the bonus is an ability change of 2, so these aren't fine enough in their own right for applying drain/permanent ability bonuses.