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  1. #1441

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyar View Post
    If 3.5 is out this will be the end of everything.
    Valyar, what do you mean by that?

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Bidmaron View Post
    Valyar, what do you mean by that?
    I mean that 3.5 will probably outsell the current products if they release it as digital product. It is by far the most complete D&D edition and line with a lot of content both adventures and supplements (not to forget the Eberron and the revision of Forgotten Realms).

    I played D&D since AD&D 2e, my personal preference is still 3.5 over 5e and in my rpg world D&D 4e never existed
    I had too much D&D, nowadays I don’t run or join such games as I found much more entertaining systems and setting (but I miss Eberron, one of my favorite high-fantasy settings).
    The past is a rudder to guide us, not an anchor to hold us back.

  3. #1443
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyar View Post
    I mean that 3.5 will probably outsell the current products if they release it as digital product. It is by far the most complete D&D edition and line with a lot of content both adventures and supplements (not to forget the Eberron and the revision of Forgotten Realms).

    I played D&D since AD&D 2e, my personal preference is still 3.5 over 5e and in my rpg world D&D 4e never existed
    I had too much D&D, nowadays I don’t run or join such games as I found much more entertaining systems and setting (but I miss Eberron, one of my favorite high-fantasy settings).
    Nah pathfinder took that title a while back, while I certainly don't doubt that you love 3.5 (I am in a 3.5 game myself atm) the reality is it isn't, wasn't and will never be as popular as 5e. FG could release it tomorrow, it be super popular and still sell less than 5e because 5e has all the might of popular opinion and accessibility attached to it.

    One only has to look at pathfinder stats on FG to see this trend existing there too.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I want it to come to FG as well. Just not going to become a top seller because of nostalgia. Much in the same way as I would love B/X but that would be a relatively niche system as well

  4. #1444
    The market now is different compared to what it was before. 3.5 probably will have great success, but as retro game. I am more nostalgic in my statement, you got it right.
    The past is a rudder to guide us, not an anchor to hold us back.

  5. #1445
    This is not an attempt at a versions war, please don’t take it as that. My favorite is 1E or 2E (we kept things from 1E they took away based on the “moral majority” male bovine excrement.

    2E was great until (again for me) they started creeping to too many books. I can’t say when that was. I was super excited at the kits in the Complete books at first even liked some things I n “build your own class” of the S&P? But by some point there was just too much and I remember we didn’t suffer in “customization” back in 1E with those very restrictive classes. I haven’t looked deeply at it (I own them) but I might try Adventures Deep and Dark sometime seriously to see if that is a good mix of 1e & 2e.

    3e and later 3.5e became almost before I knew it splatbook hell. I was hardly able to get our old 1e/2e folks together due to moving and breakups but I started a new one with another couple and my best friend it seemed cool. But then all that crunch and eventually it petered not due to the edition - I meant in general. But I couldn’t keep up all the feats racial bonuses from all fade-in races to choose priest classes etc all good on their own and *for me* too much (especially feats) together.

    I am now planning to start a S&W in person campaign at home with son wife and friend. After he is into it more if that happens, I may morph to 1.5e or 2e or Adventures Dark & Deep or some combo of them.

    I was excited and bought the PF book with all in one and thought wow - they are taking the good ideas and putting it all together in a single book without all the crazy options (ironic...)

    Yup, it’s me. My problems. My inability to decide on how to filter all the options (many are truly optional) but I prefer reduced complexity and more “winging it” with what makes sense. I used to read all the Dragon magazines for stats and house rules to give me guidelines for things like weather/env issue (loved Dungeoneers and Wilderness guides when they came out!) but these just helped guide my dming choices vs were part of the “rulesystem.

    I’m excited about getting in a 2E game using Cel’s ruleset it is so very well done. I’m in a fun group now so even though it is 5e I’m staying so means have to be careful to see what else can commit to so waiting a bit.

  6. #1446

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    I love 3.5 as well, but PF is my fave. Hoping PF2 will be what it promises. Thing is that any successful system will either have a ton os 'splat' or will issue new editions every 3 years because you have to sell stuff to players. DM modules don't sell as well due to more limited audience of DMs than players, I probably will never go back to WOTC after the 4e abortion and how they treated us 3.5 fans at the time, and I love the Paizo business model of subscriptions and giving discounts on alternate forms of their material (e.g. FG) if you already own the PDFs (which are free if you subscribe to hard copy subscriptions).

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Bidmaron View Post
    I probably will never go back to WOTC
    Same here, but for slightly different reasons.
    Nowadays I support and follow publishers who provide free PDFs if you purchase a hardcover and discount from hardcover if you purchase the PDF from them. Modiphius, Chaosium, Free League are amazing in that and I really love their games and products. Paizo also have great model and if it wasn't my dislike for Pathfinder/Startfinder in general I would have been great supporter (as I still buy books in the digital age).

    WOTC and their business model, probably forced by Hasbro or pure greed, is against my principles - asking us to constantly buy the products over and over on various platforms. Intellectual property is not the medium, but the content and I don't see any other reason than the described above of asking us to pay multiple times. And except with the hardcovers, on some platforms you don't even own the content. It is not about money, but principles for me. Same reason I don't use subscription services except Spotify.


    Quote Originally Posted by Varsuuk2E View Post
    was great until (again for me) they started creeping to too many books. I can’t say when that was.
    This is the only way to generate revenue for most of the publishers. With the 5e product line, I give it that, the amount of books that are not adventures or campaigns is quite acceptable. Even if I suddenly want to be back to D&D, the financial hit to buy all (don't ask) won't be the same as with some other systems. Their current model and the alternative income channels probably help in keeping the revenue up and no need to constantly push out supplements like in the old days.
    The past is a rudder to guide us, not an anchor to hold us back.

  8. #1448
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    I play a few different systems, more than many, but certainly less than some players.
    There is no system I have ever felt a need to buy everything published for that system.

    As you point out - publishers have to sell books and that means releasing new ones on an ongoing basis - but we should never feel that we should buy it just because its available.

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  9. #1449

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    Well that is why I am a Paizo-only guy because I MUST buy everything. Just OCD I guess. I am going back on DTRPG and buying the old material pre-Hasbro that I like. (Al Qadim, Planescape, all the 3.5 stuff and 3.0 stuff [which I already have hard copy]].

    Valuation, what is it about PF you don’t like? It is basically 3.75.

  10. #1450
    I bought nearly all the original adventures for AD&D, I bought a ton of non Adventure stuff and most Dragon & later many Dungeon issues. It’s was my hobby and books plus miniatures was what I liked spending money on. It wasn’t so much quantity as type of books. 5e isn’t too bad if I recall, I don’t really read them much past the first phb/dm. I own everything but on FG only so it isn’t something that lends itself to casual laying around reading even we’re I interested.

    I dig the financial reasons for why they feel like they have to release so many (again pre 5e) “options” books. They feel and have probably proved that the players in a group will buy them versus the DM only. It’s probably one of the reasons TSR in the more limited competition field didn’t hold up (yup, many other reasons)

    Thing is the options, many seem good to me as well -certainly felt that way in 2e. But eventually and worse barely noticeably it becomes too heavy or limiting in all the specific situation rules and a couple years later it is nearly a different game. Then it is hard to come up with a reduced version because of wanting consensus and you still need to buy and playtest new stuff if you want to make an informed opinion.

    All this resulted in my turning to Frog God Games for a simpler more open ended system (although as I said, I may transition back to 1e/2e and just use their stuff, as all mentioned OSRlike systems are easy to convert among) I also love that they publish WORLD Books a lot where it’s info plus adventures sometimes. Then they also publish many modules of different level ranges and not just the super modules like Tower of Air which cover huge 1-N levels. Those are great but I’d have no use for multiple ones if it weren’t for the super leveling speed of 5e which results in characters I feel less a part of since I get to enjoy powers/levels and other “new” stuff more than spend time at each level building stories about them and having to differentiate memories by what happened that night or series of delves vs by the level. I find myself thinking of the campaign first vs the character. That isn’t terrible either, it’s just different. In many ways I like the fast thing for telling a campaign story that does not fit on the same “level but that is not as often as WotC thinks since a story can indeed get more meaningful as time goes on without you having to get to 9th or higher level.

    I like 5e to play in FG enough. More for the group and D&D fun than anything else. But I will never buy their books, only reason I buy them on FG is to support FG. Now the 2e rule-system I can see using to DM and hope to at some point with bought modules and my own and many I convert from the great FGG books (which all come with pdf and some now with tokens and VTT maps separately)

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