DOE: Locations Extension

[dulux-oz]

The campaign - this is the same as every other module

Cheers - and thanks

[dulux-oz]

Just my rampant ego asking, but are people actually using this, and if so, is it useful to them?

Cheers

[damned]

ermmm... Im not right now but I do want to start using it.

[Trenloe]

13 total downloads of the current version.

[dr_venture]

I'm afraid this is going to come off as negative and critical, but I really don't mean it that way, as your work is pretty fantastic! But I haven't started using it yet, though I've been kinda teetering on the cusp of taking the plunge for a while. They're certainly very feature rich and enticing, and I *really* want to in many ways. That said, so far my reasons for not adopting have been:

1) The sheer amount of work required to first generate, then enter the information into such a thorough database.

2) The worry that that the fruits of that effort could be lost if you become unable to maintain the modules and they become orphaned by the FG app itself over time.

3) Possibly the biggest issue: I'm not sure FG itself is up to the job of managing all that data effectively, despite your excellent work. Perhaps I'm tainted by negative experiences with much older versions, but I know that the DB records aren't exactly efficient in their data storage, and I could see the DB bloating considerably with the world info added. I dunno how robust FG is in dealing with a very large XML database.

Also, the FG interface for managing large lists of things (such as NPCs, etc.) is pretty clumsy, having only a tab for grouping, then just long lists of things with only names identifying the "things" in the list. The "find" feature is useful, but I worry that trying to keep even a fraction of the number of NPCs (for instance) I'd like to keep in the system would get really difficult to use. Just entering a largish AD&D1e module resulted in huge lists of NPCs, encounters, parcels, etc... trying to keep track of all of the records for Greyhawk via tabs in the Personalities window is just too cumbersome for me.

4) Finally, the interface of the pages makes a lot of use of toggleable fields, where values are set by clicking through multiple options. Since I don't know the fields' potential values by heart, I have to click through the lists of options multiple times before I can find the appropriate option. That makes entering data very slow for me. Having something like a drop-down menu would be far more helpful, as I could just view the options and pick the appropriate one from a list, instead of clicking through at least once to learn the available options.

So I have very mixed emotions on the extensions, or more appropriately, mixed emotions about wanting to adopt their use. They're absolutely terrific in so many ways: feature rich, and really to my mind the pinnacle of what can be accomplished in FG. But in the process they kind of highlight some of FG's shortcomings. I really don't want to post anything negative because I'm kind of in awe of the sheer volume of quality, thoughtful development you've completed - it's rather amazing, actually! But I also want to be super honest about what my personal thought process is. Take this all with a huge dose of "FWIW."

[dulux-oz]

13 total downloads of the current version.

Yeah, I saw that - but downloads don't necessarily mean usage

[dulux-oz]

I'm afraid this is going to come off as negative and critical, but I really don't mean it that way, as your work is pretty fantastic! But I haven't started using it yet, though I've been kinda teetering on the cusp of taking the plunge for a while. They're certainly very feature rich and enticing, and I *really* want to in many ways. That said, so far my reasons for not adopting have been:

All good points, and I thank you for the feedback. Let me take each one one-by-one and see if I can allay your concerns, etc.

1) The sheer amount of work required to first generate, then enter the information into such a thorough database.

This is the same type of problem we, as GMs, have no matter what we're doing. The sheer amount of info is being generated anyway when we create/translate our adventures - this is just a way to organise that info into a more structured form than simply using "Story" Entries. And we don't have to enter it all in at once - enter it in as we go: most of our PCs start their adventuring in a small village (eg Homlet, Orlane, Kline) before exploring out into the surrounding areas, so only enter the village and maybe the surrounding area first, plus the Tavern, Town Hall and maybe the Stables and local Church. When the party moves on, enter the extra - that's how I do it.

2) The worry that that the fruits of that effort could be lost if you become unable to maintain the modules and they become orphaned by the FG app itself over time.

I'm here for the long haul - I've been GMing since 1982 and I'm not going anywhere. I write this stuff because I need it for my Übergame Ruleset and I make it available to others because I find it useful and I think others will too. I've got other Extensions and Rulesets for other RPGs in the pipeline which I'll make available as I get them done. I'm not the most vocal member here (hats off to Trenloe ) but the day I stop RPGing is the day I die - and when I get to (the Seven) Heaven(s) I'm going find Gary Gygax, Dave Anderson and all the others and insist that they deal me in - or else!

3) Possibly the biggest issue: I'm not sure FG itself is up to the job of managing all that data effectively, despite your excellent work. Perhaps I'm tainted by negative experiences with much older versions, but I know that the DB records aren't exactly efficient in their data storage, and I could see the DB bloating considerably with the world info added. I dunno how robust FG is in dealing with a very large XML database.

An issue, and one I've considered in depth - as a Database Administrator and Architect my first instinct is no have a proper RDBMS system as the back-end to FG (something like Firebird - open source, enterprise-grade, robust, small-footprint) but I've looked at the data handling code that FG uses and, provided the GM's Host is sufficiently powerful (most 64-bit, 8Gb RAM, 512Gb HDD PCs are), it shouldn't be a problem - if it is, or if people are worried about it, carve off Records into sub-groupings (Kingdoms and sub-areas, for eg, or individual Towns and associated Buildings, etc) and put them into separate Modules, then load those you need - afterall, FG doesn't have any problem handling the 100s of Monsters in a "typical" Monster Manual.

Also, the FG interface for managing large lists of things (such as NPCs, etc.) is pretty clumsy, having only a tab for grouping, then just long lists of things with only names identifying the "things" in the list. The "find" feature is useful, but I worry that trying to keep even a fraction of the number of NPCs (for instance) I'd like to keep in the system would get really difficult to use. Just entering a largish AD&D1e module resulted in huge lists of NPCs, encounters, parcels, etc... trying to keep track of all of the records for Greyhawk via tabs in the Personalities window is just too cumbersome for me.

Again, the way I get around this is two-fold: first, every NPC gets a Chapter/Adventure Number as the first part of their name, thus automatically sorting all the needed NPCs into needed groupings; second, I carve off groups of groupings into separate Tabs and/or Modules.

4) Finally, the interface of the pages makes a lot of use of toggleable fields, where values are set by clicking through multiple options. Since I don't know the fields' potential values by heart, I have to click through the lists of options multiple times before I can find the appropriate option. That makes entering data very slow for me. Having something like a drop-down menu would be far more helpful, as I could just view the options and pick the appropriate one from a list, instead of clicking through at least once to learn the available options.

That one's a "learning curve" issue - one I've tried to make as easy as possible by both having the sequences progress in a logical fashion (very cold, cold, chilly, normal, warm, hot, very hot) and by providing extensive documentation, both in the Thread and also as a Wiki Page for the Extension. Unfortunately a Drop-Down List is not the easiest Interface Component to get to work - especially for an interface like FGs - and I know that wasn't a criticism aimed at me, just part of your concerns. All I can suggest is the more you enter data the more you'll learn the interface and therefore the faster it'll become.

So I have very mixed emotions on the extensions, or more appropriately, mixed emotions about wanting to adopt their use. They're absolutely terrific in so many ways: feature rich, and really to my mind the pinnacle of what can be accomplished in FG. But in the process they kind of highlight some of FG's shortcomings. I really don't want to post anything negative because I'm kind of in awe of the sheer volume of quality, thoughtful development you've completed - it's rather amazing, actually! But I also want to be super honest about what my personal thought process is. Take this all with a huge dose of "FWIW."

I don't take this as negative (especially as its not primarily aimed at my "stuff") and I, as I'm sure Moon, Doug and Zeus do, welcome the feedback - I just hope my views help to "swing you around"

One Q: what does FWIW mean?

[damned]

One Q: what does FWIW mean?

Fornicating wyrms inbreeding wildly.

[dulux-oz]

fornicating wyrms inbreeding wildly.

w t f ???

[damned]

Oh - it could also mean: For What Its Worth - a variation on IMHO or IMNSHO...
That one and YMMV seem to crop up regularly in Dr_Vs vernacular