Still being developed?

[Tidalwave0089]

Alright, hearing you want to and have some intention to do so makes me feel a bit better about it. I do understand with low staffing and time, there are limits to what you can do and I can see where trying to get on steam would help increase interest especially after Virtual table top was added recently, but surely you can agree that with confusion for new users abound and want appears to be a lack on service would only serve to under mind the interest and attention you want to get for this product. Obviously this goes a little both ways, getting more attention could increase sales and draw in new devs, but at the same time lack of upkeep and confusion could turn off some, save for the most enthusiastic hobbyist.

That being said, legit question: Why is it each rule set module controls and dictates functions rather than that being handled by the fantasy grounds program itself? I'm no programmer so maybe I don't get it, but from my view it looks lik FG is just a "box" in which you set a rule set and all functions, rather than FG's being the functions and the rule sets just plugging into it and giving access to rules, changing theme looks, but all sets basically working the same other than theme dressing and game rules. Seems like that would have made it much easier to make new content for when all you had to do was make the rule set letting FG's control and dictate basic functions.

[damned]

@TidalWave - you can play *any* game you want with Fantasy Grounds.

How do you play around a table? You get some paper and pencils and erasers and dice and some rulebooks.
You describe whats going on. You might sketch out a map. You might even use some minis for tactical play.
Something happens and you roll a dice and consult some tables and you add some ability modifiers and subtract some challenge ratings and someone makes a determination - Success! Play progresses on to the next person.

You can do that in Fantasy Grounds. You can text chat. You can share images/maps. You can lay a grid over the map. You can pass secret notes to players - even secret images. You have a funky 3d dice roller for the 6 main dice and you can use the command line for all other dice. The GM can pre-pare info and with a single click change characters or throw text into the chat window that was spoken by the Guard captain as he denies you entry to the city.

Thats pen and paper role playing and exactly what Fantasy Grounds was designed to do.

Fast forward and now you have combat trackers, rulesets that know what bonus to hit a level 6 half-orc barbarian with 17 strength and gauntlets of ogre strength gets when flanking his opponent. There are 6 variables there just on the attackers side - plus the variables on the defenders side.

It has been mentioned on several occasions in this thread that programming a ruleset takes HUNDREDS of hours. Most rulesets contain copyright material belonging to 3rd parties. Rulesets that are for sale here have a large chunk of the $$ go to the copyright owner to pay for their IP. The remainder is split between SmiteWorks and the Developer. The Developer is usually working for wages normally reserved for the dark continent. It is done for love, for a challenge, because the dev wants the ruleset to be played. No one is retiring on money made from making rulesets for Fantasy Grounds. Even if 100 people went out and bought this ruleset tomorrow it would not be financial incentive to update it. It would get updated because someone has the time and the desire to do it.

If you play a ruleset like Pathfinder or Savage Worlds on here and then you go play it on another tabletop you will get some idea of just how powerful this product is. And Savage Worlds is not CoreRPG based. Its not that Mutants & Masterminds isnt powerful or doesnt do tonnes of stuff for you - its just not as awesome as the Pathfinder ruleset - which is given away for free!

You have stated your case and its been heard. The reality is - it will happen or it wont happen. It wont happen for $28. It will happen because someone has the capacity to do it. There are many, many rulesets here with way less automation and cool stuff than M&M and some with more. Many of these were coded by people for free because it enhances the hobby they love. I can see that someone has just posted a DCC game on FG Con - that will be a far more bare bones experience than M&M and Im sure people will enjoy it just the same. Step back and take a deep breath and look at all the features it does have.

[viresanimi]

That is so well stated Damned. M&M is actually a great ruleset and the fact that the entire Mutants and Masterminds basic rulebook is contained within the ruleset with a lovely reference window, makes it worth the money in and off itself.

Vires Animi

[Tidalwave0089]

Dude, first off I wish you hadn't have mentioned the copyright holders. No duh they are involved if they are charging for the rule set, but do you think Green Ronin would be happy to know that Pathfinder and D&D gets better treatment and attention from the devs then their product does? No, I think they'd be annoyed, I sure as hell would if one copyright holders product was getting better treatment than my own, just as I'm annoyed free ones get updated when paid one may or may not. I'm beginning to see theres just that same new gamer attitude of being happy with whatever little thing comes along instead of caring about the quality of the product for the money you've spent, maybe i'm just too old. If I'm the only one with expectations that paid content will grow and improve then fine, forget I said anything and I guess we can just hope this project will find a way to grow anyway. I paid my price, took a chance and paid for a product I was interested in instead of torrenting it and learned a lesson. I hope if I check back on this product later down the road it'll have grown and evened out. I paid for it so I'll still use it, maybe I'll use the ruleset, maybe i'll just stick to core, but if honestly if the attitude, especially from other customers, is "whatever, it's good enough," then I can't see me bothering to putting more into it either, both effort and money.

[damned]

@Tidalwave0089 - we obviously are missing the intent of each others posts. I do hope you enjoy your gaming here, there is a wonderful supportive and creative community here and Im sure you will find plenty of things to assist your gaming experience. regards Damian.

[Trenloe]

Tidalwav0089 - you've paid for a V1.0 product THAT WORKS. You are in the great position with generous SmiteWorks that *if* this ruleset is ever updated, to V1.1, V2.0, V55 you will get that upgrade FOR FREE. This, in and of itself, is great for the paying user - but it is potentially not so great for a developer who, as damned has pointed out above, basically develops a ruleset for peanuts. Upgrading a ruleset to use CoreRPG is actually a major task which, to be honest, gives very little change in functionality at this time. Yes, everyone who reads this thread knows that you disagree on this point - but please take it from those of us who have been around here for a while, and have used any ruleset functionality to the full, that it really is very little change in functionality. I'm not trying to make you change your mind, just ask you to listen to what experienced FG users are telling you - because I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The danger that you now have is that you might end up missing one of the best things about Fantasy Grounds - the incredibly helpful community. Everyone who has read this thread understands your position on this. But, going on and on about it may result in you alienating some people in the community and so you might miss out on great help. That's not a threat, that is just the reality. One of the two people who own SmiteWorks has replied to this thread so they are aware of your position.

I would like to see you you come down off your soap box, take a few deep breaths, play your M&M game with your friends using the M&M ruleset, ask questions in this forum in a friendly manner when you inevitably come across something that doesn't make sense to you or doesn't work quite how you expect (see the manage characters and /exportchar stuff I helped you with early in this thread).

If you don't want to put more effort into learning to use the M&M ruleset for your online gaming then I think you will be missing out immensely, and that would be a shame.

I really hope that you become an active member of this community and over time get as passionate about Fantasy Grounds as a lot of us are. We all had to go through a steep learning curve, and the community helped out a lot with that. I really feel that you're still missing how great the M&M ruleset is because you are basing a lot of your opinion off a video for a different ruleset. Yes, I understand your point about perhaps the entry should say "Not based on CoreRPG" - but would that not cause more confusion for folks not in the know and, being completely honest, would it have actually stopped you buying the ruleset? Or, perhaps, on the other side of the coin, rulesets that are based on CoreRPG should indicate that they are? Either way this might not mean much to someone new to the product.

Now, to answer one of your questions: "Why is it each rule set module controls and dictates functions rather than that being handled by the fantasy grounds program itself?" Short answer - flexibility and freedom of development. The base Fantasy Grounds application provides a framework for rulesets to run on top of and has a defined set of commands that ruleset developers use to produce a ruleset. Each ruleset is programmed in thousands of lines of code (in the LUA programming language and using XML for framework specification) and a developer can do a lot within that framework to make the ruleset look, feel and operate how they wish. If you remove some of the functionality written into the ruleset and put it into the core app then you are removing development freedom and flexibility. If you ask any experience developer on this forum what they'd prefer - less freedom of development, but simpler rulesets then I'd imagine most would say "don't take away my freedom" and would probably ask for more development flexibility with more functionality controlled in the ruleset.

[Andraax]

Oh and a BTW. I disliked the size of the chat window in the Castles and Crusades ruleset (pre-CoreRPG) as well. You can adjust the size by tweaking the "Scale UI" in the Settings page. This will scale the fonts up or down, making the relative size of the chat window larger or smaller as well.

[TalonKaine]

Well said Trenloe... I agree FG forums are the most helpful forums I have ever experienced. The community is amazing.