XP and Leveling in AD&D

[S Ferguson]

1. I do it the same way leozelig does it.
2. That is, the way the DMG suggests, apart from grading the players - they're all good!

I do occasionally hand out a bonus XP award for a particularly outstanding piece of play.

That's usually how I start awarding XP; for good roleplaying. Actually, the Paladium system of experience grading is how I usually "grade" players, In my tabletop games, in which you have a subjective system of distributing points, rather than an objective system. The only problem with that is that players tend to level up at lower levels quite easily, but the advancement at higher levels grinds to a standstill. Like Leozelig pointed out, players lose interest except when they are getting what the dammed called "that warm fuzzy feeling" of leveling up. Dr. V's system is close to what I use in tabletop games. I just haven't quite figured out how to grade "roleplaying" in an, for those T.V. inspired, "episode" of FG, where I find more metagaming than roleplaying. Do others find that to be true? Usually, in the TT games I run, I'm playing with a group that enjoys roleplaying over arguing over the rules, but that might be because of the game I'm running (C&C right now); I'm deathly afraid of moving back to "well the DM's Guide says this and the Monster Manual II states that" style of play. But I'm pining for a good old game of AD&D.

Thoughts?
SF

[sehmerus]

for my Basic D&D games I award Xp based on Coins found, and also Magic items gold value if sold (divided among the party) and i give it to them based on how much they got for it not how much its worth. also i have them keep track of their bonus XP rewards.

Bonus rewards are the 5 or 10 % based on prime requisite stats, plus i add the following bonus'es as well.

Fighter= 10Xp per monster defeated
Magic-user= 10XP per spell cast
thief= 5xp per Kill, & 5xp per successful use of thier skill
cleric= 10xp per spell, 10xp per save ally from dying. and 20XP per Sermon
Elf= 5xp per spell & 5xp per enemy Defeated
Dwarf= 10xp, per monster defeated, +20xp per Orc or Giant killed.
Halfling= 10xp per monster defeated

[dr_venture]

A lot of folks do award XP for good role playing, but I've never really done that as I've known too many gamers who are just uncomfortable with it. They prefer to just kind of meta game the adventure and treat their character more like a pawn than a persona. They play more in the vein of, "I go to the captain of the guard and try to convince him to lower the gate" ... rather than playing through the conversation in character. Those guys can sometimes be avid gamers, but just not really 'role players.' For me, that's totally fine - I've had fantastic games both with very detailed role playing variety (my old west game is sometimes entirely role playing without a die rolled) and with the more removed meta-gaming approach. As long as it's fun, I'm OK with whatever.

I guess what I'm looking for in awarding XP is the player participating in the game by finding a way to advance the cause of themselves or the party, whether that is melee, spells, saving a life, good ideas, or role playing. I wouldn't award XP for just good role playing by itself (like a great campfire conversation, for instance) unless it was related to the advancement of the story/plot/party goals. Great campfire conversations and player interactions are rewards unto themselves

[S Ferguson]

A lot of folks do award XP for good role playing, but I've never really done that as I've known too many gamers who are just uncomfortable with it. They prefer to just kind of meta game the adventure and treat their character more like a pawn than a persona. They play more in the vein of, "I go to the captain of the guard and try to convince him to lower the gate" ... rather than playing through the conversation in character. Those guys can sometimes be avid gamers, but just not really 'role players.' For me, that's totally fine - I've had fantastic games both with very detailed role playing variety (my old west game is sometimes entirely role playing without a die rolled) and with the more removed meta-gaming approach. As long as it's fun, I'm OK with whatever.

I guess what I'm looking for in awarding XP is the player participating in the game by finding a way to advance the cause of themselves or the party, whether that is melee, spells, saving a life, good ideas, or role playing. I wouldn't award XP for just good role playing by itself (like a great campfire conversation, for instance) unless it was related to the advancement of the story/plot/party goals. Great campfire conversations and player interactions are rewards unto themselves

I always loved the "former killer in the woods" one. No, I feel that, as Kevin Siembeida would say, a character with an intelligence of 6 who's a jet-fuel genius who plays "in character" deserves a reward for it. Ditto for coming up with plans that don't advance the party but are still "worthy" ideas. They might not advance the plot, but might bring new insight into a character or facet of the adventure you'd (as GM) never have considered - A "clever idea," but futile in furthering the plot. I also reward for "good judgment." I award for Daring (clever or not), "self-sacrifice" and grade encounters on minor, major and great menaces. Basically it's the Palladium system modified for D&D (with a fair bit of Rolemaster filling in the blanks).

I agree that a good campfire story is a reward in itself, but the key word is reward. If it entertains the other characters (and the GM) I say reward the player. I guess I'm more used to role-playing rather than roll-playing. AD&D seems to enforce the latter while the Basic Set seemed to enforce the former. I guess that's why I wound up house ruling XP Rules a lot in AD&D and Basic D&D when the 1e Paladium System came out.

Online with VOIP you'd think your inhibitions would be a little higher, preventing some from the "ham-it-up school to "background players." But I recently had a one-off game where the role playing was intense and you literally got caught up in the "acting" of your character. I find in FG, sometimes the nature of the "token on a map" pushes you into roll-playing mode, which is why I prefer not to use them (it also saves a lot of headache with layers, scaling. and what-have-you's). Mind you the sessions I run are sort of in a three act play format with short breaks between acts, where the adventures are based more on an Aristotle 5 Act structure, with an act a session (or more). Hence the players level up, but not because of gold found (now there's a reward in itself), but because of what they bring to the game, in terms of their character.

I cut my teeth in role-playing with the Original Rules, Runequest and The Fantasy Trip (as Melee and Wizardry were my grognard rules for mano de mano combat), and I guess because I was playing with an older crowd, roleplaying was emphasized. When the dice don't touch the table it seems that is where my niche in XP awarding lies. When the dice were rolled behind the screen, tension arose.

Thoughts?
SF

[Mistindantacles]

I guess then I am on the outside, as I do *not*, and never have, awarded XP for treasure or monies. From my perspective, gaining the "l00tz" is a prize in and of itself.

Think of it like this - "You win a brand new car! It's worth $60,000, so in addition to the casr, you get 60 grand in cash, too!"

It seems kind of ridiculous.

Now, as to how I award XP:

(1) For killing monsters, of course.
(2) For completing adventures or completing campaign arcs
(3) Exceptional role-play / puzzle solving

Well, how do I compute 2 and 3? Well, it's quite simple. I let the players roll for XP.

That's right ... the players roll for it.

There are 6 dice: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20. I let one player roll a d6. Now, this determines the the die to be rolled for the multiplier that will be used in the XP calculation. So a 1 on the d6 roll means that the multiplier die is the d4, a 2 means the multiplier is a d6, etc ... up to 6 being a d20.

Then, a second player rolls the multiplier die. The number rolled is the multiplier.

A third player rolls d100. That roll times the multiplier is then multiplied by the average character level in the party for the bonus XP for completing an adventure or campaign arc.

Hope you could follow all of that.

If it's a difficult puzzle that someone finds a succint solution to, or solves it in an 'A-HA!" moment, then then I generally use a d4 multiplier times the d100 times the character level.


But that's just me.

[Answulf]

That is pretty bizarre... so for completing an adventure they are getting a random amount of XP between 1-2000 x lvl?

To each his own, but that is probably the most unusual way I've heard it done. From a player's perspective that seems like it would suck to complete an adventure and then get like 10xp for it. A couple of bad rolls in a row and the players are just treading water. I'd have a mutiny in my group!

I agree with you on the concept of XP for gold, however. I don't usually give XP for gold either, but when I do I use a house rule that they don't get the XP for the gold until they spend it. Keeps their money scarce and a bit more valuable.

[S Ferguson]

I really have to concur. Does this method actually work in practice? I have to admit I never thought of XP as being determined randomly. It cuts down on the amount of complaining, I guess, but could prove to have awfully slow leveling, unless you throw creatures at them. I'm curious to hear how it would work, though. in an actual gaming session; I mean aside from the math aspect of it, rather more from a leveling issue side. (Personally I'd like the $60,000 along with the car - but then I'm not a player usually).

[JohnD]

Personally I care more about the adventure than the level gain... but I DM 99.9999% of the time (possibly an under estimation...), so I prefer slow level gains.

That said, my preferred advancement rate at the frequency of an on-line game with adults struggling to make time in-between family, children, spouse, work, etc... well it would be a year worth of play to make 2nd level.

In these days/times, that just won't fly. So, I really just determine whether or not I want characters to have gained a level by the end of a finite adventure, and if so it happens (there are some basic calculations involved) - I give close to 50% of my XP for story/plot/character advancement, not kills or treasure found.

In Pathfinder I award XP as per the guidelines, but adopt the "slow" advancement rate so PCs need more than the standard amounts to gain a level.

Training is something I like to pursue when PCs level... but in an on-line world this seems to meet with resistance, so I just gloss over it with a blanket cost and an assumed amount of time having passed.

[dr_venture]

Hmmm... perhaps I'm not understanding some other DM's thoughts on the value of role playing in character advancement. I appreciate DM's wanting to reward good roleplaying by awarding XP for it, as it's an aspect of the game that is core to RPGs and fun. A player invests themselves into a session, and the DM wants to reward that - I understand the desire to reward that.

But for me it's all about rewarding characters with XP for things that would most likely cause that character to advance in their profession, or as an adventurer. An argument can always be made that everything a character does advances their understanding of the world, but a line does have to drawn somewhere, practically speaking... which is what we're talking about.

I'd award XP for a Rogue that roleplays a conversation with a noble, sweet talking his way into the person's home in order to pilfer something - he's accomplished something he can learn from, and be better at his profession. But I'd reward that Rogue equally whether he played the whole encounter out with a proper accent and witty banter, or whether the player simply said (as many of mine prefer to do), "I'm going to use my Charisma to chat up the rich guy and see if I can get access to his house."

I wouldn't reward the rogue for having a Oscar-worthy performance at the game table for conversation with an very important NPC if it didn't advance either the character's personal or professional goals/story, or the party's goals/story. If something was achieved by chuming up to the NPC, whether through role play or simple statement by the player, I'd reward it.

I've just had too many players who aren't comfortable roleplaying to the degree that other players are. They're very uncomfortable 'acting.' They absolutely love the game, are avid and regular players, but they're just not comfortable stepping as far into their character's shoes as other players are. As a DM I get that too, I have absolutely no problem with it. My only goal is for them to have fun playing and get into the game to whatever degree in which they're comfortable.

I would say that I think roleplaying a character naturally leads to more opportunities for gaining XP, because, well, things tend to just come up in conversation, just like in real life. I do my best to be fair, but I've definitely had subjects and information come up if roleplayed conversations that I never expected to come up at all, and players have benefited from this, and indeed have gotten XP from that conversation. I try to be fair to the non-extroverted players an allow for this to a degree, but it is what it is - some methods of game play are more effective than others. I can't change that, but I can make the non-extroverted feel comfortable and level their playing field a bit.

[S Ferguson]

Personally I care more about the adventure than the level gain... but I DM 99.9999% of the time (possibly an under estimation...), so I prefer slow level gains.

That said, my preferred advancement rate at the frequency of an on-line game with adults struggling to make time in-between family, children, spouse, work, etc... well it would be a year worth of play to make 2nd level.

In these days/times, that just won't fly. So, I really just determine whether or not I want characters to have gained a level by the end of a finite adventure, and if so it happens (there are some basic calculations involved) - I give close to 50% of my XP for story/plot/character advancement, not kills or treasure found.

In Pathfinder I award XP as per the guidelines, but adopt the "slow" advancement rate so PCs need more than the standard amounts to gain a level.

Training is something I like to pursue when PCs level... but in an on-line world this seems to meet with resistance, so I just gloss over it with a blanket cost and an assumed amount of time having passed.

Yes, I too only play in three games now. The rest I'm Game Mastering. I would prefer the slow gain, but as you pointed out, it's difficult on line. Leveling is something I've always associated with training and somehow that peters out to a long-haul of metagaming just to get things going, or like you said, you gloss it over. I personally enjoy roleplaying the gaining of experience, but with the number of classes (usually 4 in my campaigns) you literally have to spend a day with each, roleplaying there advancements. That is, if they have the time to spare from real life to virtual life. I think that's why I get a little generous on XP for roleplaying the adventure with the character you play. A little less for things you have to gloss over.