How to Handle "Between Level" Training

[Answulf]

So for an entirely different approach:

I've gone through a lot of different phases over the years (2013 is my 30th anniversary as a GM!), but I've mostly just ignored between level training altogether or morphed it into "on the job" training. I do think it serves a purpose in soaking up player resources, but I would rather do that in more creative ways.

More recently, however, I've been playing around with various incarnations of downtime like that found in Pendragon and Mouseguard. I really like the idea of having an off season from adventuring where time passes significantly, with anywhere from a few months to as much as a couple of years or more of game time passing in between adventures. During the off season characters train, level up, start construction on that small keep they've been wanting, conduct spell research, etc. I will usually let them make some minor tweaks to their character, like say drop a skill they no longer use and pick up a new one. We typically roleplay it out in a single session or through a series of individual discussions, but player actions are big-picture ideas and are measured in days, weeks or even months. The best way I can describe my style with it is that it is like adding backstory, but in between levels - which makes it a lot more important and interesting to the players than their original backstory.

Quick example: I had a player with a wizard who wanted to build a small mage tower, find an apprentice and research some new spells. This took him about two years in game time, but just one session where we worked out some of the details, gave him a few new custom spells and an apprentice hireling. The other characters in the group did other things for two years - one of them got married and had a kid just so that the player could play his son as a character some point down the road - then the next 'real' adventuring session involved the old gang getting back together when the wizard's tower was razed to the ground.

By adding a significant passage of time, you open up all types of character advancement and/or mechanical changes to player creativity - and at the same time add an extra layer of realism. It's been really popular with my players so far and I enjoy GMing it.

[S Ferguson]

So for an entirely different approach:

I've gone through a lot of different phases over the years (2013 is my 30th anniversary as a GM!), but I've mostly just ignored between level training altogether or morphed it into "on the job" training. I do think it serves a purpose in soaking up player resources, but I would rather do that in more creative ways.

Ditto. Far too many phases to count, and each was fun at the time. I'd like to gloss over this as I did in the past but I also want it to be a part of the game the players look forward to. Hence this thread.

More recently, however, I've been playing around with various incarnations of downtime like that found in Pendragon and Mouseguard. I really like the idea of having an off season from adventuring where time passes significantly, with anywhere from a few months to as much as a couple of years or more of game time passing in between adventures. During the off season characters train, level up, start construction on that small keep they've been wanting, conduct spell research, etc. I will usually let them make some minor tweaks to their character, like say drop a skill they no longer use and pick up a new one. We typically roleplay it out in a single session or through a series of individual discussions, but player actions are big-picture ideas and are measured in days, weeks or even months. The best way I can describe my style with it is that it is like adding backstory, but in between levels - which makes it a lot more important and interesting to the players than their original backstory.

Gosh, I love Pendragon (esp. the 5.1 version out now - Greg Stafford's ultimate take). Unfortunately, the difference between it and other games is that it is dependant on the "Great Campaign" from Uther's reign, to Arthur's succession, to the Dolorus Stroke to Arthur's sending off to Avalon. Whipping up a campaign of the scope of that measure would be a Herculean feat, using the standard adventure format of today. Even in Pendragon, though, there are periods following the Dolorus Stroke, in which your knight almost constantly questing, gaining glory and renown. This would be where most roleplaying games sit these days. The adventures are linked and in order to hit the big payoff, there's no real "downtime" in travelling from one place to another.

Quick example: I had a player with a wizard who wanted to build a small mage tower, find an apprentice and research some new spells. This took him about two years in game time, but just one session where we worked out some of the details, gave him a few new custom spells and an apprentice hireling. The other characters in the group did other things for two years - one of them got married and had a kid just so that the player could play his son as a character some point down the road - then the next 'real' adventuring session involved the old gang getting back together when the wizard's tower was razed to the ground.

By adding a significant passage of time, you open up all types of character advancement and/or mechanical changes to player creativity - and at the same time add an extra layer of realism. It's been really popular with my players so far and I enjoy GMing it.

I suppose I wouldn't have a problem with this, except for the "significant" part. Humans, etc. have limited time on their hands so in order for a son to proudly say, I am son of Olaf, leader of men, who fought with honor on the fields of Agincourt, his father would either have had to been called away to service for his kingdom (a technique I've used to fuse mass combat, that makes a difference, into the works with a few rolls on a table), and have had to accumulate renown in order for his name to carry weight. The mage in your example gaining an apprentice, and the other's marriage, I would put on "rotation," effectively putting them out of the next "two years" of adventuring.

And I mean two years is a lot of time in which skills are forgotten, combat edges fail to remain honed, and taking on a student means less time to engage in personal studies. Adventuring, IMHO is a full-time occupation, and that may also be why I started this thread. I'm not a staunch realist in my games (in fact far from it) but I do look at the Most-Plausible-Outcome-of-an-Event-Factor (tm) in retrospect seeking to keep players entertained and me on my toes.

But you bring up good points. Perhaps a shift in perspectives is needed. Time to put on the old thinking cap again...

[Answulf]

I gotcha. I was just throwing it out there that lately I've drifited in the opposite direction of your preference - rather than trying to account for their time more accurately, I've been hand-waiving off large swaths of their lives and the payoff has been added depth to the story of the lives of their characters, and added creative input from the players - which is why I have enjoyed it so much.

The only real success I've had at making between level training a more engaging part of the game for players is in the form of quest-related requirements. I think making it engaging through game mechanics is a tougher road, which is why most players are happy to gloss over it. However, if I were going to to try to house rule it instead, I would probably fall back on usage like you mentioned - but try to keep it simple.

Just off the top of my head as an idea:

I would probably start with some end-of-the session assessment kind of along the lines of roleplaying rewards. If they used their skill to great effect that session they get +2 "points", if they used it a little they get +1 point and if they didn't use it they get -1 point. Then figure out what to do with the points. Maybe require a minimum to advance the skill when they gain a level, or they can advance it independently when it reaches a threshold. They lose it (and have to replace it with something else they are doing that they don't have a skill for) if it goes too far negative. Maybe you just use the points collected as a frame of reference when they do level up to discuss how they want to tweak their character.

[sakmerlin37]

Over the years, I've played with some great GMs and some not so good; I remember one in particular, who was particularly dedicated to creating a fun, immersive game. Often times, training for a warrior, as an example, would be one-on-one adventures to hone the skills; for example, my warrior belonged to a guild where training would be done in the arena. I would pick the skills my character would focus on and then he would run either a planned or an impromptu one-on-one adventure session to account for leveling, learning of new skills, honing the old skills, etc.

Not a path for everyone, but, as a player, I really enjoyed it. It's always been my goal to incorporate that methodology into my GM style; it is when I began to do so that I noticed just how committed my friend was to making the game fun for everyone; I know that he enjoyed the complexity this provided.

[S Ferguson]

Over the years, I've played with some great GMs and some not so good; I remember one in particular, who was particularly dedicated to creating a fun, immersive game. Often times, training for a warrior, as an example, would be one-on-one adventures to hone the skills; for example, my warrior belonged to a guild where training would be done in the arena. I would pick the skills my character would focus on and then he would run either a planned or an impromptu one-on-one adventure session to account for leveling, learning of new skills, honing the old skills, etc.

Not a path for everyone, but, as a player, I really enjoyed it. It's always been my goal to incorporate that methodology into my GM style; it is when I began to do so that I noticed just how committed my friend was to making the game fun for everyone; I know that he enjoyed the complexity this provided.

I think that's an amicable solution to the problem, using Guilds and travel times as an opportunity for players to enjoy the game and practice in their respective "factions." One-on-one gaming is usually a pain in the butt to orchestrate between time zones, but if the players enjoy the session, that's what counts.

Cheers,
SF

[Gargomaxthalus]

Hmmm interesting stuff. About the training thing, training for a number of weeks equal to your level sounds a bit to hokey to me. I'd more rather have this process be a bit more complicated in a manner similar that thing about fighting in an arena but with some extra flair. The idea of a Knight participating in tourneys just plain makes sense as would a Rouge doing contract work or a Fighter doing a stint in an arena. The way that I would handle it would be to set it up as a full fledged event with activity appropriate rewards and risks. This event wouldn't just be for the player who is training, it would be loaded with side opportunities for the rest of the party such as placing bets, fixing fights, or the party helping with a Rouges contract work. Such a thing could lead to fantastic story hooks such as pissing off an influential noble by stealing a family heirloom or a Knight becoming a Lady or even Princess's champion and getting various benefits and complications from it(this would be upper level content of course). The event would directly scale to the PC's level and serve as the intermission in the story, having everyone go through this process would be really complicated, challenging and time consuming, but it would vastly enrich the experience.



(This post was created by someone who has never even played PnP, no matter GMed, and would likely make for a terrible GM at that. He is also prone to anxiety issues and probably won't return to this thread. He just likes sharing his ideas when they prove capable of overwhelming his irrational fears.)

[S Ferguson]

Hmmm interesting stuff. About the training thing, training for a number of weeks equal to your level sounds a bit to hokey to me. I'd more rather have this process be a bit more complicated in a manner similar that thing about fighting in an arena but with some extra flair. The idea of a Knight participating in tourneys just plain makes sense as would a Rouge doing contract work or a Fighter doing a stint in an arena. The way that I would handle it would be to set it up as a full fledged event with activity appropriate rewards and risks. This event wouldn't just be for the player who is training, it would be loaded with side opportunities for the rest of the party such as placing bets, fixing fights, or the party helping with a Rouges contract work. Such a thing could lead to fantastic story hooks such as pissing off an influential noble by stealing a family heirloom or a Knight becoming a Lady or even Princess's champion and getting various benefits and complications from it(this would be upper level content of course). The event would directly scale to the PC's level and serve as the intermission in the story, having everyone go through this process would be really complicated, challenging and time consuming, but it would vastly enrich the experience.



(This post was created by someone who has never even played PnP, no matter GMed, and would likely make for a terrible GM at that. He is also prone to anxiety issues and probably won't return to this thread. He just likes sharing his ideas when they prove capable of overwhelming his irrational fears.)

Sounds like you have the makings of a GM already. You've raised good points about story hooks, and involving the entire party rather than just a single player. I agree that knights and tourneys (or even one on one duels) does make a lot of sense. I also like the idea of making an intermediary story amongst the main campaign; but that's what I started this thread for. It's an issue that rarely gets raised, but I think it's important nevertheless. To learn from others is the best source of information gathering.

And forumophobia can be easily overcome. You just have to work at it.

Cheers,
SF